Thread: Wow! Are You Kidding Me!?

Originally Posted by joebehar

...but can you imagine if they asked most of those people to do fractions or calculate a percentage?...

That's a good point. I work as an Education Coordinator in a prison, and we give all prisoners a numeracy and literacy assessment. It's very basic. Almost none of the prisoners I give the test to can work out 50% of 25, 1/4 of 8 or .25 of 12.

Now, of course, a prison population is a distinct 'set' of people, and I work in a women's prison, so we have another set of disadvantages.

I have 48% of the Aboriginal population enrolled, and female Aboriginal prisoners, esp those who are older, form one of the most damaged and disadvantaged groups in our society in my opinion.

However, to be honest, when I needed to check a new assessment, I actually had to Google how to do long division. Just prior to working in this particular prison (I've worked in four) I acted as the Business Manager of the prison. I managed a ten million dollar budget. Yet I couldn't do long division. I'm not sure about you, but it's not something I do everyday. I'd forgotten how to do it, but I was still certainly functional.

Some people who can't perform some skills can still be very functional in their particular world.

Geography is a great subject, yet for day to day existence it hardly matters if you know where Norway is, esp if you live in Central Africa, for instance. I guess that's rather an extreme example, I would have thought an American could have named Afghanistan, as it IS important to know just where (and why) you're shipping your children off to die.

But I think it IS important remembering that not all skills that I for instance see as useful will be useful to another.

[EDIT, I'm on a roll]

I, too am concerned that we too are selling my particular country to the highest bidder in big chunks. To sell prime farming land to Asia, given the fragility of the world food supply system, the size and rapidity of growth of the Asian population and the likelihood that areas closer to the equator will find it most difficult to produce food in the future seems a little short-sighted. I understand that it is VITAL for countries like Australia to help to produce food for countries other than our own (because if we don't they'll just come and take it), but one would think it'd be a good idea to at least try and maintain control over one's own actual physical land and crops. Seems to me a little like wanting quick cash right now, so taking he option of selling a spare room in your house rather than renting it out, or selling products you produce in the spare room. Why we actually need to quick cash is a mystery to me; we have one of the strongest economies of the world right now. Of course, as soon as China slows, we'll need to look inwards and become more self sufficient, at least until the hoards come to invade us.

I guess for Australia the only hope is that energy supplies decline at such a rapid rate the rampaging hoards don't have the fuel to get here.

Then we can happily fight against ourselves (which is where the scenario portrayed prophetically in the Mad Max movies could kick in :-)

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Some people who can't perform some skills can still be very functional in their particular world.

Now this is true, and I'm glad to see somebody who didn't just swallow the whole hook, line, and sinker.

The video has nothing to do with education in this country. It is about the celebration of stupidity and incompetence that seems to have found a good place in the current culture, often but not always, as 'reality shows'.
I am not entertained by these things and I do not follow them. In fact I do not own a television set as I am being better informed and better entertained without one.

Originally Posted by gugi

Now this is true, and I'm glad to see somebody who didn't just swallow the whole hook, line, and sinker.

The video has nothing to do with education in this country. It is about the celebration of stupidity and incompetence that seems to have found a good place in the current culture, often but not always, as 'reality shows'.
I am not entertained by these things and I do not follow them. In fact I do not own a television set as I am being better informed and better entertained without one.

well now i know what to get you for your birthday!
when i was younger (back in the 80's) i went years without a TV... just did not have enough free time to waste... my parents came to visit and could not handle the no tv bit within 30 hours of them arriving i had a brand new tv and cable they thought i lived in the stone age... as soon as they left i canceled the cable and put the tv in a closet where it sat until their next visit, after that i just left it out and got addicted to it.

I read a long discussion about what is wrong with education today. The upshot of it was TV.

TV is too easy, learning to read is hard. It is almost impossible to get kids to pick up a book. The way I did it was to only allow my kids to stay up past bedtime by reading a book.

My wife teaches biology, chemistry, and physics in high school. These are required courses and the kids mostly don't want to be there. I can't believe how many chances she is _forced_ to give these kids and they still fail because they refuse to do any work at all. She is required to let them take tests 3 times. Most don't bother to take it the second time. Kids are always stealing tests and test keys. She has set traps for the kids that do this. She has some seniors that are still trying to pass freshman courses.

They have parent/teacher nights all the time. She takes the trouble to call the parents of the failing kids. How many show up? On a good night she might get two and she has 168 students.

She is under constant pressure to pass more students whether they have learned anything or not. This she refuses to do.

She has "special needs" (retarded/autistic) students mixed in. They have a special teacher that is supposed to come in and help with testing. She can't get that teacher to do anything at all. She works longer hours than I do and I have a 2 hour commute.

She bought a blue tongue skink an installed it in the classroom as an incentive. She only lets the kids play with it after their work is done. It does help. The kids act like they have never had a pet of any kind at all.

Her biggest problem? She cares, and the students refusal to even try to learn kills her.

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Some people who can't perform some skills can still be very functional in their particular world.

Geography is a great subject, yet for day to day existence it hardly matters if you know where Norway is, esp if you live in Central Africa, for instance. I guess that's rather an extreme example, I would have thought an American could have named Afghanistan, as it IS important to know just where (and why) you're shipping your children off to die.

But I think it IS important remembering that not all skills that I for instance see as useful will be useful to another.

I respectfully disagree.

Geography might not play a vital role in most people's day to day lives, but math sure does, and not being able to do simple math or estimations quickly can end up costing you a lot.

What's a better deal, getting 2 pounds of meat for $5.50 or three pounds for $8.00....there are many companies out there that know most consumers are unable to do that math and end up paying more.

You're thinking of redoing your kitchen floors. How do you calculate how many tiles to buy and the total cost of the job if the only price you have is per square foot of tile, or even the cost of a single tile that's a certain size? Do you want to end up with part of your floor left untiled or a bunch of leftover tiles you paid for go to waste?

Simple math.

"their particular world", whatever it is, still means eating and buying stuff.

Geography plays a more important role in understanding the world around us and why things like shipping costs affect the final price of products. If you don't know where Sweden is how can you evaluate the shipping costs of a Volvo car? How many people know that there are quite a few parts of the USA (excluding Alaska) that are actually NORTH of Canada? Don't you think its important to know where your biggest trading partner is?

Education, in all subjects, creates wealth, reduces crime, improves social skills and makes defending against bad guys easier. Rather then letting those who, for any reason, do not have the skills we are talking about live in their particular world, lets bring them into ours. We will pay less, they will make more money, the government will collect more taxes to better our infrastructure and that will cause us to pay less, help them make more money....you get the idea

I understand that there will always be a certain percentage (there's that math thing again) of the population that will not get there, but we have to minimize it if we're to have any chance of keeping our freedoms and democracy. Its a fact that oppressive regimes succeed in places where there are a lot of uneducated people.

Maybe if we put it in terms of losing your freedoms and rights, people will take this more seriously.

Darn it all, I said the rant was over...I guess I still have to vent.

Originally Posted by joebehar

I respectfully disagree.

Geography might not play a vital role in most people's day to day lives, but math sure does, and not being able to do simple math or estimations quickly can end up costing you a lot.

What's a better deal, getting 2 pounds of meat for $5.50 or three pounds for $8.00....there are many companies out there that know most consumers are unable to do that math and end up paying more.

You're thinking of redoing your kitchen floors. How do you calculate how many tiles to buy and the total cost of the job if the only price you have is per square foot of tile, or even the cost of a single tile that's a certain size? Do you want to end up with part of your floor left untiled or a bunch of leftover tiles you paid for go to waste?

Simple math.

"their particular world", whatever it is, still means eating and buying stuff.

Geography plays a more important role in understanding the world around us and why things like shipping costs affect the final price of products. If you don't know where Sweden is how can you evaluate the shipping costs of a Volvo car? How many people know that there are quite a few parts of the USA (excluding Alaska) that are actually NORTH of Canada? Don't you think its important to know where your biggest trading partner is?

Education, in all subjects, creates wealth, reduces crime, improves social skills and makes defending against bad guys easier. Rather then letting those who, for any reason, do not have the skills we are talking about live in their particular world, lets bring them into ours. We will pay less, they will make more money, the government will collect more taxes to better our infrastructure and that will cause us to pay less, help them make more money....you get the idea

I understand that there will always be a certain percentage (there's that math thing again) of the population that will not get there, but we have to minimize it if we're to have any chance of keeping our freedoms and democracy. Its a fact that oppressive regimes succeed in places where there are a lot of uneducated people.

Maybe if we put it in terms of losing your freedoms and rights, people will take this more seriously.

Darn it all, I said the rant was over...I guess I still have to vent.

That's fine, I like it when people disagree, respectfully or otherwise, it gives me a chance to re-think my thoughts.
Of course you're right in a lot of ways, I certainly don't mean to say that basic numeracy is not needed or worthless, of course it is. I'm talking about what I or you may think is needed may not be for others. People SHOULD learn basic maths, of course they should, for all the reasons you mentioned. But a LOT of people have complex coping mechanisms and strategies and supports. I'm talking about people who would NEVER contemplate re-tiling a kitchen floor.

I have clients at work who have never worked, who drink to the point of intoxication everyday, who vomit blood. When I'm told by my Department that they 'must' address their numeracy and literacy deficiencies, I say 'why'. Why would Mary need to be able to work out percentages? So she knows what percent of a carton is still to be drank? Certainly I address their needs. And, in fact, you hit on a really important point, that I guess you (and others) already know. Education for adults MUST be in context and MUST be relevant for THEM. Teaching Mary logarithm tables (I'm showing my age now) is useless. Teaching her how to cook, how to fill in a form, and how to use a CALCULATOR to add up prices in a supermarket and budget is or course very important. Mary could not care LESS where Norway is, unless she intends to migrate there because they have really, really cheap wine.

Oh, BTW, I'd rather people actually critically analyse what their politicians are doing to their country, their 'freedom' their 'rights' etc. Wouldn't it have been interesting if the quiz show had the question "Why are we in Afghanistan"?

Oh, another BTW, I agree that education reduces crime (recidivism), the stats 'sort of' prove it (more on that on request :-)). However, basic skills lead to a basic job with basic pay, and that's not enough to get crims out of the crime cycle. But, we also need to be honest, some people are NOT going to get their college degree, the best we can teach them is how to get clean needles. I actually think a LOT of our (Australian) education system is completely pointless. I'm currently selecting units from a new curriculum, and need to keep the number of units to less than about 15. It'll be interesting to see what we come up with. I also intend to install an oven in the education centre and use cooking to teach literacy and numeracy; again, relevance and context.

As a joke, one of our correctional educators came up with a test that they thought had great relevance, it went along the lines of:

1. T. Nguyen has a kilo of heroin that he bought for x$. He splits it at a ratio of 100:1 with baking powder. If he sells bags of his mix at x$/bag, uses 10% for himself, how much profit has he made, considering he needs to pay $1000 for protection?

Very rude, generalistic and politically incorrect, but it makes a point...(as I, of course, do not) :-)

Best wishes, Carl...

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

That's fine, I like it when people disagree, respectfully or otherwise, it gives me a chance to re-think my thoughts.
Of course you're right in a lot of ways, I certainly don't mean to say that basic numeracy is not needed or worthless, of course it is. I'm talking about what I or you may think is needed may not be for others. People SHOULD learn basic maths, of course they should, for all the reasons you mentioned. But a LOT of people have complex coping mechanisms and strategies and supports. I'm talking about people who would NEVER contemplate re-tiling a kitchen floor.

I have clients at work who have never worked, who drink to the point of intoxication everyday, who vomit blood. When I'm told by my Department that they 'must' address their numeracy and literacy deficiencies, I say 'why'. Why would Mary need to be able to work out percentages? So she knows what percent of a carton is still to be drank? Certainly I address their needs. And, in fact, you hit on a really important point, that I guess you (and others) already know. Education for adults MUST be in context and MUST be relevant for THEM. Teaching Mary logarithm tables (I'm showing my age now) is useless. Teaching her how to cook, how to fill in a form, and how to use a CALCULATOR to add up prices in a supermarket and budget is or course very important. Mary could not care LESS where Norway is, unless she intends to migrate there because they have really, really cheap wine.

Oh, BTW, I'd rather people actually critically analyse what their politicians are doing to their country, their 'freedom' their 'rights' etc. Wouldn't it have been interesting if the quiz show had the question "Why are we in Afghanistan"?

Oh, another BTW, I agree that education reduces crime (recidivism), the stats 'sort of' prove it (more on that on request :-)). However, basic skills lead to a basic job with basic pay, and that's not enough to get crims out of the crime cycle. But, we also need to be honest, some people are NOT going to get their college degree, the best we can teach them is how to get clean needles. I actually think a LOT of our (Australian) education system is completely pointless. I'm currently selecting units from a new curriculum, and need to keep the number of units to less than about 15. It'll be interesting to see what we come up with. I also intend to install an oven in the education centre and use cooking to teach literacy and numeracy; again, relevance and context.

As a joke, one of our correctional educators came up with a test that they thought had great relevance, it went along the lines of:

1. T. Nguyen has a kilo of heroin that he bought for x$. He splits it at a ratio of 100:1 with baking powder. If he sells bags of his mix at x$/bag, uses 10% for himself, how much profit has he made, considering he needs to pay $1000 for protection?

Very rude, generalistic and politically incorrect, but it makes a point...(as I, of course, do not) :-)

Best wishes, Carl...

Carl,

You make some very valid and interesting points. Very sobering (excuse the pun) and some of them downright scary.

I admit that my thoughts did not go to the type of people you deal with routinely. I guess they would fall into that percentage I mentioned. Yes, teaching Mary how to cook and calculate food prices in the market is probably the best we can hope for and we should concentrate on that. I guess if she's sober and not panhandling for money, she can do well enough without knowing where Norway is

I think we basically agree, we just happened to say it differently. Maybe my expectations are too high.

Now, as far as logarithmic tables go...I always lost them in my mess of papers, so I just learned how to use a slide rule..how's that for showing my age? It wasn't till my last year of high school that calculators were available for less than $100, and at that time $100 was a number 10 high school students could maybe put together. Besides, the batteries in my slide rule never died in the middle of an exam. The only downside (or maybe its actually a plus) is that you actually have to know some math in the first place to use a slide rule.

And yes, I still have my slide rule and I still know how to use it. Every once in a while I'll take it out just to give the kids something to laugh at.

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

That's a good point. I work as an Education Coordinator in a prison, and we give all prisoners a numeracy and literacy assessment. It's very basic. Almost none of the prisoners I give the test to can work out 50% of 25, 1/4 of 8 or .25 of 12.

Now, of course, a prison population is a distinct 'set' of people, and I work in a women's prison, so we have another set of disadvantages.

I have 48% of the Aboriginal population enrolled, and female Aboriginal prisoners, esp those who are older, form one of the most damaged and disadvantaged groups in our society in my opinion.

However, to be honest, when I needed to check a new assessment, I actually had to Google how to do long division. Just prior to working in this particular prison (I've worked in four) I acted as the Business Manager of the prison. I managed a ten million dollar budget. Yet I couldn't do long division. I'm not sure about you, but it's not something I do everyday. I'd forgotten how to do it, but I was still certainly functional.

Some people who can't perform some skills can still be very functional in their particular world.

Geography is a great subject, yet for day to day existence it hardly matters if you know where Norway is, esp if you live in Central Africa, for instance. I guess that's rather an extreme example, I would have thought an American could have named Afghanistan, as it IS important to know just where (and why) you're shipping your children off to die.

But I think it IS important remembering that not all skills that I for instance see as useful will be useful to another.

[EDIT, I'm on a roll]

I, too am concerned that we too are selling my particular country to the highest bidder in big chunks. To sell prime farming land to Asia, given the fragility of the world food supply system, the size and rapidity of growth of the Asian population and the likelihood that areas closer to the equator will find it most difficult to produce food in the future seems a little short-sighted. I understand that it is VITAL for countries like Australia to help to produce food for countries other than our own (because if we don't they'll just come and take it), but one would think it'd be a good idea to at least try and maintain control over one's own actual physical land and crops. Seems to me a little like wanting quick cash right now, so taking he option of selling a spare room in your house rather than renting it out, or selling products you produce in the spare room. Why we actually need to quick cash is a mystery to me; we have one of the strongest economies of the world right now. Of course, as soon as China slows, we'll need to look inwards and become more self sufficient, at least until the hoards come to invade us.

I guess for Australia the only hope is that energy supplies decline at such a rapid rate the rampaging hoards don't have the fuel to get here.

Then we can happily fight against ourselves (which is where the scenario portrayed prophetically in the Mad Max movies could kick in :-)

I think you guys should just jump into the water and swim the few hundred feet to that big island to the right of you and just take over. Nobody really lives there anyway.

I am an educator and I am not going to rant.

I will merely suggest that education in the United States is not nearly as bad as everyone thinks. Many of the systems that are described as having the best education do not include all. School, above a middle school education, is something to be earned in many countries. One is required to pass certain boards and examinations both written and oral in order to even get into the High School level.

So perhaps I will rant a little.

Many are given the chance to move into a trade or apprentice program. The U.S. has moved away from this paradigm and has greatly suffered. We say every student needs to be in a college track and expect them to do exactly that when some would be just as happy as a car mechanic. Honestly, my mechanic makes about three times my salary and had no formal college education (was he educated? yes.). There is need for every type of job, but we cannot live by the addage that everyone is inherently equal in mental capacity, and/or that everyone is needed or intended to be the same. I am much happier knowing that there is a diverse population that would gladly learn different trades and that the money isn't the only decision maker on what type of job you perform.

Do I think that there are better education systems? Yes. Does that mean that the entire population of that country is smarter? No. Fortunately for this country we still have some great educators and the most extensive post primary education in the world. We still have innovation that other countries envy and do their best to steal. We put more stock in advancement and technology, and are decades ahead of many countries. And thankfully many great minds from abroad want to live here. I do see a regression, but it is not the norm.

Last bit I'd like to share. I would bet that less than 20% of all U.S. adults could even list half of the States and State Capitals (without looking them up).

[QUOTE=Yochatman;958032}

Do I think that there are better education systems? Yes. Does that mean that the entire population of that country is smarter? No. Fortunately for this country we still have some great educators and the most extensive post primary education in the world. We still have innovation that other countries envy and do their best to steal. We put more stock in advancement and technology, and are decades ahead of many countries. And thankfully many great minds from abroad want to live here. I do see a regression, but it is not the norm.

Last bit I'd like to share. I would bet that less than 20% of all U.S. adults could even list half of the States and State Capitals (without looking them up).[/QUOTE]

I think a major problem with our post primary education system is it is flat too expensive and it shouldn't be will all the government support it gets.
Also, colleges are too willing to give out degrees in areas that are totally useless unless you are going to teach. What good is a Fine Arts degree outside of college?