Thread: Wow! Are You Kidding Me!?

There was a report out just yesterday that more than 50% of college grads are unable to find a job in their chosen field.

There needs to be more thought about the market when choosing a degree.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

There was a report out just yesterday that more than 50% of college grads are unable to find a job in their chosen field.

There needs to be more thought about the market when choosing a degree.

Or we need to do something to fix the economy. Not everyone is cut out to be a Doctor or a Nurse, and in many cases, that's where the jobs are right now. There are other highly skilled positions available, and a few unskilled, but looking through the want ads around here, it's mostly "work from home" schemes that I see popping up. Sadly too many people fall for them.

Personally I think this says more about the TV show becoming outdated than the education system failing. I mean seriously - faced with naming 5 countries starting with the letter A who doesn't google it? There are now about 20 ways we can access the web with personal devices - it is way more convenient than keeping unnecessary information in our heads.

They should rename the show Wikipedia Wars and just own up to what is reality nowadays - the "smart" people are the ones with the fastest access to the web.

On the subject of University graduates finding jobs, the problem began by making these organisations vocational in the first place. Universities are not places to train for a job IMO. The only reason I even bother to teach undergrads anything at all is the (vain) hope that every 10 years or so a couple of them might come along that have half a brain that I can then take advantage of for 3-5 years to do my research for me as grad students. And even that rort is being ruined because now the bean counters want PhD completions within 3.5 years!!! The world is going to hell in a hand basket!

James.

Great points from all and a wonderful discussion. Thanks Jimbo, for years I've railed against universities functioning and being widely perceived as vocational schools. For the most part, people's response has typically been, "What other reason would anyone have for going to college?" I guess knowledge for knowledge sake is just another charming anachronism some of us still cling doggedly to. Nice to have one of my many oddities validated by a man of your education.

My OP was undoubtedly a drastic oversimplification of the problem it's not about politics, spending on education (or lack thereof), and people certainly didn't suddenly become a stupider species (despite what we are force fed daily in the media and/or pop culture. ) The "Kinder, Gentler World" that has emerged since my childhood is probably the biggest culprit here. Young children these days are raised to be acompetitive from their earliest days. Why work your butt off to be the best football player on the team when you'll get the same trophy that the worst player in the league will get? The same mentality of "everyone is equally excellent" extends to our kids' education. How do you make everyone academically excellent? You make the standard for excellence achievable to everyone, even the mediocre or marginal performers. Suddenly everyone is an excellent scholar destined for remarkable success at the college level. Heaven forbid any of our children experience rejection or disappointment. Those of us who grew up in the real world (and certainly those who teach at the university level) know this idea is not only completely untrue but patently ridiculous. How many round pegs has our culture of egalitarianism hammered into the square holes of academia?

Lest I be accused of any variety of elitism, I understand that academic success does not equal intelligence; a concept hammered home by years of working with Air Force officers. Just as straight razor shaving, cigars and pipes aren't for everyone, college is not for everyone. In a less "kind and gentle" world, this was understood. A kid that had a passion for working on cars, making stuff out of wood, or metal fabrication was encouraged and provided opportunities to pursue that passion. These days, few such opportunities exist. The expectation is that everyone goes to college.

Emerson said it far better than I: "Our culture has truckled to the times--to the senses. It is not manworthy. If the vast and the spiritual are omitted, so are the practical and the moral. It does not make us brave or free. We teach boys to be such men as we are. We do not teach them to aspire to be all they can.. We do not give them a training as if we believed in their noble nature. We scarce educate their bodies. We do not train the eye and the hand. We exercise their understandings to the apprehension and: comparison of some facts, to a skill in numbers, in words; we aim to make accountants, attorneys, engineers; but not to make able, earnest, great-hearted men. The great object of Education should be commensurate with the object of life. It should be a moral one; to teach self-trust; to inspire the youthful man with an interest in himself; with a curiosity touching his own nature; to acquaint him with the resources of his mind, and to teach him that there is all his strength, and to inflame him with a piety towards the Grand Mind in which he lives. Thus would education conspired with the Divine Providence. A man is a little thing whilst he works by and for himself, but, when he gives voice to the rules of love and justice, is godlike, this word is current in all countries; and all men, though his enemies, are made his friends and obey it as their own."

Originally Posted by joebehar

I respectfully disagree.

Geography might not play a vital role in most people's day to day lives, but math sure does, and not being able to do simple math or estimations quickly can end up costing you a lot.

What's a better deal, getting 2 pounds of meat for $5.50 or three pounds for $8.00....there are many companies out there that know most consumers are unable to do that math and end up paying more.

You're thinking of redoing your kitchen floors. How do you calculate how many tiles to buy and the total cost of the job if the only price you have is per square foot of tile, or even the cost of a single tile that's a certain size? Do you want to end up with part of your floor left untiled or a bunch of leftover tiles you paid for go to waste?

Simple math.

"their particular world", whatever it is, still means eating and buying stuff.

Geography plays a more important role in understanding the world around us and why things like shipping costs affect the final price of products. If you don't know where Sweden is how can you evaluate the shipping costs of a Volvo car? How many people know that there are quite a few parts of the USA (excluding Alaska) that are actually NORTH of Canada? Don't you think its important to know where your biggest trading partner is?

Education, in all subjects, creates wealth, reduces crime, improves social skills and makes defending against bad guys easier. Rather then letting those who, for any reason, do not have the skills we are talking about live in their particular world, lets bring them into ours. We will pay less, they will make more money, the government will collect more taxes to better our infrastructure and that will cause us to pay less, help them make more money....you get the idea

I understand that there will always be a certain percentage (there's that math thing again) of the population that will not get there, but we have to minimize it if we're to have any chance of keeping our freedoms and democracy. Its a fact that oppressive regimes succeed in places where there are a lot of uneducated people.

Maybe if we put it in terms of losing your freedoms and rights, people will take this more seriously.

Darn it all, I said the rant was over...I guess I still have to vent.

That's fine, I like it when people disagree, respectfully or otherwise, it gives me a chance to re-think my thoughts.
Of course you're right in a lot of ways, I certainly don't mean to say that basic numeracy is not needed or worthless, of course it is. I'm talking about what I or you may think is needed may not be for others. People SHOULD learn basic maths, of course they should, for all the reasons you mentioned. But a LOT of people have complex coping mechanisms and strategies and supports. I'm talking about people who would NEVER contemplate re-tiling a kitchen floor.

I have clients at work who have never worked, who drink to the point of intoxication everyday, who vomit blood. When I'm told by my Department that they 'must' address their numeracy and literacy deficiencies, I say 'why'. Why would Mary need to be able to work out percentages? So she knows what percent of a carton is still to be drank? Certainly I address their needs. And, in fact, you hit on a really important point, that I guess you (and others) already know. Education for adults MUST be in context and MUST be relevant for THEM. Teaching Mary logarithm tables (I'm showing my age now) is useless. Teaching her how to cook, how to fill in a form, and how to use a CALCULATOR to add up prices in a supermarket and budget is or course very important. Mary could not care LESS where Norway is, unless she intends to migrate there because they have really, really cheap wine.

Oh, BTW, I'd rather people actually critically analyse what their politicians are doing to their country, their 'freedom' their 'rights' etc. Wouldn't it have been interesting if the quiz show had the question "Why are we in Afghanistan"?

Oh, another BTW, I agree that education reduces crime (recidivism), the stats 'sort of' prove it (more on that on request :-)). However, basic skills lead to a basic job with basic pay, and that's not enough to get crims out of the crime cycle. But, we also need to be honest, some people are NOT going to get their college degree, the best we can teach them is how to get clean needles. I actually think a LOT of our (Australian) education system is completely pointless. I'm currently selecting units from a new curriculum, and need to keep the number of units to less than about 15. It'll be interesting to see what we come up with. I also intend to install an oven in the education centre and use cooking to teach literacy and numeracy; again, relevance and context.

As a joke, one of our correctional educators came up with a test that they thought had great relevance, it went along the lines of:

1. T. Nguyen has a kilo of heroin that he bought for x$. He splits it at a ratio of 100:1 with baking powder. If he sells bags of his mix at x$/bag, uses 10% for himself, how much profit has he made, considering he needs to pay $1000 for protection?

Very rude, generalistic and politically incorrect, but it makes a point...(as I, of course, do not) :-)

Best wishes, Carl...

Originally Posted by Wintchase

Ha,ha,ha! Clearly they missed Alabama!... Geez,buncha tards...

And they missed Arkansas

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

That's fine, I like it when people disagree, respectfully or otherwise, it gives me a chance to re-think my thoughts.
Of course you're right in a lot of ways, I certainly don't mean to say that basic numeracy is not needed or worthless, of course it is. I'm talking about what I or you may think is needed may not be for others. People SHOULD learn basic maths, of course they should, for all the reasons you mentioned. But a LOT of people have complex coping mechanisms and strategies and supports. I'm talking about people who would NEVER contemplate re-tiling a kitchen floor.

I have clients at work who have never worked, who drink to the point of intoxication everyday, who vomit blood. When I'm told by my Department that they 'must' address their numeracy and literacy deficiencies, I say 'why'. Why would Mary need to be able to work out percentages? So she knows what percent of a carton is still to be drank? Certainly I address their needs. And, in fact, you hit on a really important point, that I guess you (and others) already know. Education for adults MUST be in context and MUST be relevant for THEM. Teaching Mary logarithm tables (I'm showing my age now) is useless. Teaching her how to cook, how to fill in a form, and how to use a CALCULATOR to add up prices in a supermarket and budget is or course very important. Mary could not care LESS where Norway is, unless she intends to migrate there because they have really, really cheap wine.

Oh, BTW, I'd rather people actually critically analyse what their politicians are doing to their country, their 'freedom' their 'rights' etc. Wouldn't it have been interesting if the quiz show had the question "Why are we in Afghanistan"?

Oh, another BTW, I agree that education reduces crime (recidivism), the stats 'sort of' prove it (more on that on request :-)). However, basic skills lead to a basic job with basic pay, and that's not enough to get crims out of the crime cycle. But, we also need to be honest, some people are NOT going to get their college degree, the best we can teach them is how to get clean needles. I actually think a LOT of our (Australian) education system is completely pointless. I'm currently selecting units from a new curriculum, and need to keep the number of units to less than about 15. It'll be interesting to see what we come up with. I also intend to install an oven in the education centre and use cooking to teach literacy and numeracy; again, relevance and context.

As a joke, one of our correctional educators came up with a test that they thought had great relevance, it went along the lines of:

1. T. Nguyen has a kilo of heroin that he bought for x$. He splits it at a ratio of 100:1 with baking powder. If he sells bags of his mix at x$/bag, uses 10% for himself, how much profit has he made, considering he needs to pay $1000 for protection?

Very rude, generalistic and politically incorrect, but it makes a point...(as I, of course, do not) :-)

Best wishes, Carl...

Carl,

You make some very valid and interesting points. Very sobering (excuse the pun) and some of them downright scary.

I admit that my thoughts did not go to the type of people you deal with routinely. I guess they would fall into that percentage I mentioned. Yes, teaching Mary how to cook and calculate food prices in the market is probably the best we can hope for and we should concentrate on that. I guess if she's sober and not panhandling for money, she can do well enough without knowing where Norway is

I think we basically agree, we just happened to say it differently. Maybe my expectations are too high.

Now, as far as logarithmic tables go...I always lost them in my mess of papers, so I just learned how to use a slide rule..how's that for showing my age? It wasn't till my last year of high school that calculators were available for less than $100, and at that time $100 was a number 10 high school students could maybe put together. Besides, the batteries in my slide rule never died in the middle of an exam. The only downside (or maybe its actually a plus) is that you actually have to know some math in the first place to use a slide rule.

And yes, I still have my slide rule and I still know how to use it. Every once in a while I'll take it out just to give the kids something to laugh at.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I think you guys should just jump into the water and swim the few hundred feet to that big island to the right of you and just take over. Nobody really lives there anyway.

Hey!!

Originally Posted by EisenFaust

Hey!!

Maybe he's talking about Papua New Guinea?
Right is relative, yes?

Originally Posted by EisenFaust

Hey!!

You mean folks do live there? I be under the impression the place was really called New Seal-land and named that because a bunch of Seals lived there but the folk couldn't spell too good so they mistaked a Z for an S.