Thread: Where Do We Draw The Line?

Please bear with me, I'm just a stupid Southerner but I'm not sure, I'm on my high horse about anything. You mis-identified my remarks and I merely wanted to clarify that I was not advocating mandatory voting. I then go on to state an opinion that a more engaged citizenry might be useful to ensure the proper representation of the majority interest. It's only an opinion, and your are certainly well within your rights to disagree but I fail to see how that could then be stretched into me making any judgements about how much I contribute to society.

You may be on to something with regard to our government being the arbiter of fair equitable and honest. After all, this is the crux of what the constitution and the founding documents of our country are all about. But I think it's equally important to note that our government on it's current vector seems to get further and further removed from those founding principles every day. Even in a country founded on the idea that smaller government that allows maximum personal liberty is best, there seems to be an alarming tendency that government has an obligation to ensure that results are equal for everyone regardless. By definition, this requires a large and very intrusive government that extorts ever increasing amounts of money that people (yes even ordinary rednecks like me) work very hard for. If you're OK with that, great, good for you. I'll respect your right to your opinion and agree that (big surprise) we disagree.

Since liberals seem very engrained with the victim mentality, I'll put it another way. Being an American, I'm a victim of a cultural imperative that values integrity and law and order but harbors a ubiquitous disdain for bullshit and distrust of any overreaching authority (especially when it intrudes on my personal liberties to tend to my own affairs.) Many of our ancestors fled Europe for religious and politcal freedom and fought the tyranny of King George to start this country and every since have fought and when necessary died opposing tyranny in many cases for people too "enlightened" to oppose it themselves. Again, I request your indulgence but being a "stupid American" I'm far too proud to play the victim. In fact, most of us wear this cultural imperative like a damn merit badge and wouldn't want to face the world in any other context. If you disagree that's your right, if you prefer to make it a punch line, then so be it. That still doesn't change the fact that I, like most Americans would rather die opposing a tyrant than live kissing a tyrant's ass! HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY!

Originally Posted by BobH

I would be interested in a link or two to that story before I care to comment. I can say that a friend of mine went to our local hospital and underwent tests. They found he had a heart problem and a few days later they flew him an hour and half away to under go open heart surgery. All went well and he was flown home. Virtually no out of pocket expenses. He has absolutely no complaints. You got your stories and I have mine.

Bob

Ok.

Canadian Family in Life Support Battle Denied Request for Hospital Transfer | Fox News

Canadian family fights to move baby on life support to U.S. - CNN.com

Tell us again about Canadian Healthcare compassion. - Cafepharma Message Boards

Newsvine - Socialized Canadian Healthcare Denies Potentially Life Saving Operation: 'Baby Joseph' taken to U.S. in last ditch effort to prolong life

I can't believe you didn't hear about this.

Originally Posted by ryanjewell

wow. what an incredibly gross twisting of words. watch it again and listen carefully.

"what we can do is make sure at least some of the waste in the system that is not making anyone's mom better...that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care..."

MEANING...doctors are ordering tests and prescribing drugs that are NOT NEEDED because they know insurance companies are footing the bill. if you aren't footing the bill, you will take whatever test the doctor tells you to. unless maybe you work for a hospital or are a doctor, i don't see how that is a good thing.

Ok, great. Bureaucrats know better than your Doctor what tests you need and what is a waste of money? Since when does Obama have a medical degree?

This is exactly the kind of government Tyranny that scares the crap out of me.

Good God, Crotalus, since when is everything bad Obama's fault? What is it you can't stand about him, that he's smart or that he's not white? Spit out the Koch brothers Kool-Aid, man!

Originally Posted by 1OldGI

a more engaged citizenry might be useful to ensure the proper representation of the majority interest.

I don't think there is any evidence that higher percentage of voting citizens would change the outcome of the elections.

But really, I am not buying this 'poor stupid redneck' thing. As far as I remember you graduated college (english degree?) I presume at least partially on the taxpayers dime. And, as far as the 'high horse' I'm pretty sure you're the record holder of 'Wow, Really! (these people are so stupid, ugly, classless, uninformed, etc.)' posts on this forum.

What I have a problem with is the blatant mischaracterization of the video you posted. I viewed it and it sounds to me like a simple common sense, and if anything Obama's point is more conservative than liberal. When you only have that much money and if you have to choose between paying for grandma's cancer surgery that will extend her life by another six months, or paying for the dialysis of 12 year old kid, I think the priority is pretty clear. The insurance companies have been making far worse choices for years (preexisting conditions, dropping people's coverage).

Originally Posted by 1OldGI

Since liberals seem very engrained with the victim mentality

Wow, I hardly remember the war on christmas, the war on religion, the war on gun owners, the war on white protestant males, the war on common folk, the war on old people, the war on real america, the war on american values, the war on the job creators, the war on marriage... Or how about that lame street media?

And let's not forget that most of those ancestors who fought the tyranny of King George thought that freedom is just for the white protestant males. The contortions George Washington went to in order to keep his personal slaves while holding the POTUS office in slave-free Pennsylvania are well documented.

Things in life are not simply black and white, so when somebody starts preaching to me all about tyranny and freedom I get pretty skeptical.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Ok.

Canadian Family in Life Support Battle Denied Request for Hospital Transfer | Fox News

Canadian family fights to move baby on life support to U.S. - CNN.com

Tell us again about Canadian Healthcare compassion. - Cafepharma Message Boards

Newsvine - Socialized Canadian Healthcare Denies Potentially Life Saving Operation: 'Baby Joseph' taken to U.S. in last ditch effort to prolong life

I can't believe you didn't hear about this.

Well, it is a year or two old so I guess old age is starting to work it's magic. If you mean this case London: Second child of Moe Maraachli and Sana Nader born with same disease as their first one | CIR: Canadian Immigration Report I can't see what is too wrong, personally. Medical opinion was upheld by a court against the wishes of the parents. A Michigan Hospital also said they could do no more for him than was already done in Canada but eventually a hospital was found in the US that would do the procedure and he survived several months more in a vegetative state. Such decisions are a tough call for anyone to make, in the end the outcome was no different on way or the other. Prolonging a life with a procedure that does nothing to treat the terminal condition is probably only comforting to the parents and not the person in a vegetative state. Like I say, tough call for anyone and you live with the decision the rest of your life. In the end there was no death squad that I can see.

Bob

Originally Posted by 1OldGI

Please bear with me, I'm just a stupid Southerner but I'm not sure, I'm on my high horse about anything. You mis-identified my remarks and I merely wanted to clarify that I was not advocating mandatory voting. I then go on to state an opinion that a more engaged citizenry might be useful to ensure the proper representation of the majority interest. It's only an opinion, and your are certainly well within your rights to disagree but I fail to see how that could then be stretched into me making any judgements about how much I contribute to society.

You may be on to something with regard to our government being the arbiter of fair equitable and honest. After all, this is the crux of what the constitution and the founding documents of our country are all about. But I think it's equally important to note that our government on it's current vector seems to get further and further removed from those founding principles every day. Even in a country founded on the idea that smaller government that allows maximum personal liberty is best, there seems to be an alarming tendency that government has an obligation to ensure that results are equal for everyone regardless. By definition, this requires a large and very intrusive government that extorts ever increasing amounts of money that people (yes even ordinary rednecks like me) work very hard for. If you're OK with that, great, good for you. I'll respect your right to your opinion and agree that (big surprise) we disagree.

Since liberals seem very engrained with the victim mentality, I'll put it another way. Being an American, I'm a victim of a cultural imperative that values integrity and law and order but harbors a ubiquitous disdain for bullshit and distrust of any overreaching authority (especially when it intrudes on my personal liberties to tend to my own affairs.) Many of our ancestors fled Europe for religious and politcal freedom and fought the tyranny of King George to start this country and every since have fought and when necessary died opposing tyranny in many cases for people too "enlightened" to oppose it themselves. Again, I request your indulgence but being a "stupid American" I'm far too proud to play the victim. In fact, most of us wear this cultural imperative like a damn merit badge and wouldn't want to face the world in any other context. If you disagree that's your right, if you prefer to make it a punch line, then so be it. That still doesn't change the fact that I, like most Americans would rather die opposing a tyrant than live kissing a tyrant's ass! HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY!

nice speech, but i hate to break it to you, you are no william wallace.
i always like it when i disagree with someone and that immediately makes me a bleeding heart liberal or a dyed in the wool conservative. it's called thinking for yourself. question everything and everyone. but the fear-mongering and "the country will never survive another four years...blah blah blah"...it's the same thing the dems said about bush. enough with the extremes! quit taking what you are fed by the party line! quit thinking republican/democrat and think right/wrong...until that happens no reasonable conversation will be had.
i've got my problems with obama and the democrats too...but i will always fall to the side of making sure my fellow man is cared for vs. my fellow corporation.
for as much money as we spend on wars, bombs, jets, etc...all i'm saying is there should be a decent minimum of care for the citizens of this country.

How can the government of a free system be the arbiter of fair, equitable and honest? Those terms are too arbitrary and based on who happens to be the prevailing faction at the moment. Just another form of tyranny - of the majority. The legitimate purpose of government as established by the founders of the US through the constitution is the preservation and protection of inalienable individual rights. Where in the constitution does it mention fair, equitable and honest? Those terms sound nice, warm and fuzzy but mean different things to different people and do not necessarily reflect the general welfare of the sovereign people.

Originally Posted by honedright

How can the government of a free system be the arbiter of fair, equitable and honest? Those terms are too arbitrary and based on who happens to be the prevailing faction at the moment. Just another form of tyranny - of the majority. The legitimate purpose of government as established by the founders of the US through the constitution is the preservation and protection of inalienable individual rights. Where in the constitution does it mention fair, equitable and honest? Those terms sound nice, warm and fuzzy but mean different things to different people and do not necessarily reflect the general welfare of the sovereign people.

Who said the system is a free system? AFAIK regulations, in one form or another, have been in place since the founding of both our countries. Another point to consider is that laws and regulations, generally speaking, evolve over time just as society itself does. Fair enough, since I certainly wouldn't want to live in a society stuck in 1787 - or biblical times for that matter - and I don't know anybody who does.

I would also add that terms like "freedom" and "free system" are even more warm and fuzzy than "fair, equitable & honest".

Originally Posted by ryanjewell

nice speech, but i hate to break it to you, you are no william wallace.
i always like it when i disagree with someone and that immediately makes me a bleeding heart liberal or a dyed in the wool conservative. it's called thinking for yourself. question everything and everyone. but the fear-mongering and "the country will never survive another four years...blah blah blah"...it's the same thing the dems said about bush. enough with the extremes! quit taking what you are fed by the party line! quit thinking republican/democrat and think right/wrong...until that happens no reasonable conversation will be had.
i've got my problems with obama and the democrats too...but i will always fall to the side of making sure my fellow man is cared for vs. my fellow corporation.
for as much money as we spend on wars, bombs, jets, etc...all i'm saying is there should be a decent minimum of care for the citizens of this country.

I wish we had a 1/2 like button!
The first half of this post is the best thing I have read in this thread.