Thread: Where Do We Draw The Line?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

As far as gas prices go what do you want Govt to do? The prices are mostly driven by investors and speculators and much is outside the U.S Do you want the Govt to set gas prices or tell wholesalers or retailers what they can charge? Now that is big intrusive Govt.

Nope...I just want them to enforce competition regulations. They investigated Apple with price fixing on e books, they investigate insider trading...

Gasoline is the classic text book case of an oligopoly and there's way too much money that goes between oil companies and government for either side to stir up trouble.

Late edit: between the USA and Canada, we have enough oil to be self sufficient for much longer than it would take to come up with alternative fuels. Here's the reality; we can keep buying oil from theocratic dictatorships that have no concern for freedom or we can use our own oil, which is many orders of magnitude more ethical and will build our economy and make more jobs and prosperity. The tired old story of oil prices being driven up by speculators outside our respective countries is wearing thin. We both lost an opportunity recently with the keystone pipeline proposal. The US ends up still feeding the sheiks of Saudi Arabia and Canada has to sell its oil to China...talk about a lose-lose situation.

But that's a different topic altogether

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

When you talk to people about Govt they recite the talking points like a parrot but when you bring up things that affect them directly and specifically they want Govt to be big and bigger.

My favorite slogan along these lines was 'Get your gov hands off my Medicare!'.

Originally Posted by joebehar

We both lost an opportunity recently with the keystone pipeline proposal.

It's not as simple. The cost of using your tar sands is pretty steep. That is if you factor in all the costs many of which are currently externalized. The numbers I saw were about $120/barel, so if the oil price drops below you loose money. The whole process was started with political deals and not a result of free market calculation of cost vs. benefit.

Originally Posted by gugi

It's not as simple. The cost of using your tar sands is pretty steep. That is if you factor in all the costs many of which are currently externalized. The numbers I saw were about $120/barel, so if the oil price drops below you loose money. The whole process was started with political deals and not a result of free market calculation of cost vs. benefit.

Additionally, if you get beyond 120$, then the supply will increase significantly, leading to a decrease in price. In other words, the price would hover around the break even point, which makes it pointless from an investor point of view.

The biggest problem I have with government is that it does absolutely nothing well or efficiently.

Social Security - Bankrupt.
Post Office - Bankrupt.
Medicare - Bankrupt and full of fraud.
Obamacare will push us over the financial cliff.

Once the politicians get in your pocket, you never get them back out. Income tax was supposed to be temporary. The government makes more on a gallon of gas than the oil company does. This money is supposed to build roads, but now it isn't enough. Name one government agency that is well run.

The EPA is attempting a HUGE power grab by declaring CO2 of all things to be a pollutant. Obama keeps pushing green power and is wasting billions on companies that know they are going to fail before they are started. Solyndra for example.

The real problem is no term limits and career politicians. Have you noticed how ALL of them are rich? The founders never intended for public service to be a lifetime job.

They make laws and then exempt themselves from these laws. This is runaway government.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

The biggest problem I have with government is that it does absolutely nothing well or efficiently.

Social Security - Bankrupt.
Post Office - Bankrupt.
Medicare - Bankrupt and full of fraud.
Obamacare will push us over the financial cliff.

Perhaps. But is private industry doing it better?
Decent healthcare coverage is becoming so expensive in the US that many can't afford it. It was like that before Obama got elected. In fact, it is so bad that it GOT him elected. And that is if you don't lose your job, because if you do, then you get dumped. One person here on this forum cut his fingers to the bone and didn't want to go to the ER because of what it would cost him. Over here, that would not be a consideration.

I've argued this before: our healthcare system does not have fat insurance company and expensive lawyers. It only has the clients and the providers. And a government sponsored administration. As a result, our healthcare is much cheaper than yours. And not only do I get covered, but so do people who are in between jobs or disabled.

Perhaps Americans are unable to make it work, but for other countries it is working just fine.
There is nothing wrong with the principle of socialized healthcare. And personally, I think it is more important that the general population gets affordable healthcare than that insurance companies and medical lawyer can make increasing profits quarter over quarter.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Perhaps. But is private industry doing it better?
Decent healthcare coverage is becoming so expensive in the US that many can't afford it. It was like that before Obama got elected. In fact, it is so bad that it GOT him elected. And that is if you don't lose your job, because if you do, then you get dumped. One person here on this forum cut his fingers to the bone and didn't want to go to the ER because of what it would cost him. Over here, that would not be a consideration.

I've argued this before: our healthcare system does not have fat insurance company and expensive lawyers. It only has the clients and the providers. And a government sponsored administration. As a result, our healthcare is much cheaper than yours. And not only do I get covered, but so do people who are in between jobs or disabled.

Perhaps Americans are unable to make it work, but for other countries it is working just fine.
There is nothing wrong with the principle of socialized healthcare. And personally, I think it is more important that the general population gets affordable healthcare than that insurance companies and medical lawyer can make increasing profits quarter over quarter.

You don't have to be able to afford healthcare. It has always been and is still free for the needy. You just have to put up with the long lines at the designated Emergency Room.

What will fix our healthcare will take a long time but you can see the results of the proper direction in a few areas. Right now healthcare costs so much because people on insurance don't know or care what it costs. They only care about their deductible.

What needs to happen is healthcare needs to be forced into the open market.

Lasik surgery, back treatments, lap bands, body scanning, and others are affordable and wide spread because they are in competition with each other with advertised prices. I think if all medicine was exposed to the free market like this prices would come down dramatically and quality would improve at the same time. The same is true of insurance. If companies were free to compete across state lines insurance rates would improve as well.

We need less regulation, not more.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

You don't have to be able to afford healthcare. It has always been and is still free for the needy. You just have to put up with the long lines at the designated Emergency Room.

Where they get the most expensive care option possible.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Right now healthcare costs so much because people on insurance don't know or care what it costs. They only care about their deductible.

May be they should pay for their insurance out of their paycheck, instead of having their employers deduct it for them. How about giving them the same tax deductions as employers get (or stop the tax deductions altogether) and let them make their own decision what insurance to buy with their money. Then stop providing that free 'emergency service' option and let those who make poor decisions suffer the full consequences of these decisions. If somebody is so sick that nobody is willing to insure them or pay for their medical bills, then they should simply be left to die. You want to get rid of all 'unfairness' - it's not that hard to do.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

The same is true of insurance. If companies were free to compete across state lines insurance rates would improve as well.

Just like the banks competed on all those fees they used to charge, right? Or the way the insurance companies fought for all those uninsured people. You should talk to Undream, he got a sweet deal on flood insurance on his house.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

You don't have to be able to afford healthcare. It has always been and is still free for the needy. You just have to put up with the long lines at the designated Emergency Room.

Yes. And then they'll be stuck with a 100K$ bill because they were unlucky enough to need a moderately complex procedure, and they're bankrupted immediately. How compassionate.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

What will fix our healthcare will take a long time but you can see the results of the proper direction in a few areas. Right now healthcare costs so much because people on insurance don't know or care what it costs. They only care about their deductible.

It costs so much because it is not affordable without insurance. Ans since the insurance companies then have to pay for everything, hospitals can charge more. And dont' forget the lawyers and insurance companies.

If every person requires on average 100$ of coverage per year here, then it will be about the same in the US, right? Assuming averages work out more or less. Only in the US, each person also contributes to the profit of the insurance companies, and the lawyers that make the entire wheel go round.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Lasik surgery, back treatments, lap bands, body scanning, and others are affordable and wide spread because they are in competition with each other with advertised prices. I think if all medicine was exposed to the free market like this prices would come down dramatically and quality would improve at the same time. The same is true of insurance. If companies were free to compete across state lines insurance rates would improve as well.

Because those are all optional treatements. You can elect not to have them.
Otoh, if your appendix needs to come out or you're having a heart attack or you break a leg, you don't have the option of choosing not to have surgery at the nearest hospital.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

We need less regulation, not more.

Because big business has proven many times over that if they're not regulated, they compete fairly to the betterment of the customers?

Originally Posted by Crotalus

The biggest problem I have with government is that it does absolutely nothing well or efficiently.Post Office - Bankrupt.

I don't think it's fair to blame the government for the state of the postal system. If anything, blame Al Gore for creating the internet.

Yes, it's easy to say the Post office and all the others that are in bad shape and pin the blame on the Govt. The fact is if you turned it over to private industry to run you know what would happen. They would just raise the prices and cut the service so they made the profit they want. Maybe you think the health care passed by Congress will bankrupt the country but the fact is that is happening right now with the system we have. The stats are out there on that.

When folks rant about how dare the Govt tell them they must buy health insurance I say how dare you tell me I have to pay for your health care.