Thread: Ultimate Test of Civility ~ 2nd Amendment

Wow. Busy topic.

The problem with the police is they are much like EMT's: they show up *after* the carnage. For example, a shots fired call I placed less than a year ago the response time was over 7 minutes. Way too long for the police to do any good for anyone.

To get the phone, call 911, explain to the dispatcher what's happening... the scenario is finished before dispatch sends the call out the cars. Most fights in the real world are over in 40 seconds or less.

As for a good samaritan coming to the rescue, I wouldn't hold my breath. I won't dare to even break up a fistfight in the Wal-Mart parking lot. It isn't that I'm not capable, but I'm not introducing myself right smack in the middle of people fighting about who knows what. I simply refuse to open myself to the legal liability of inflicting bodily harm on someone when myself or my family are not immediately at risk. The legal system would not look kindly upon a highly skilled martial arts instructor beating up on a poor, untrained civilian. I'd need an equivalent of Johnny Cochran to win -- a lot of money out of my pocket to defend someone I don't even know. Ain't happening.

One of my fellow students broke up a stabbing. While the victim was busy trying to hold his guts in, the assailant turns on my friend. The knife guy hit his head on the concrete when he landed and never woke up. The DA refused to press charges citing self-defense and the victim. My friend is still carrying the guilt around with him some six years later. The guy whose life he saved hasn't helped with the psychologist bills.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Guns are merely the most convenient and least personal method of accomplishing the task. If I'm set on killing you, guns, knives, axes, baseball bats, broken beer bottles, whatever is around to accomplish the job.

Now if that person's mental disease went undetected until he reached the age of majority, he could legally get a gun after a background check and use it.

This is, in my estimation, your first valid point because it has happened already. But it is not enough of a reason to even consider snatching the rights from the people who fought with their lives to earn them.

...something else in the system failed to prevent/detect/confine/cure his mental disease.

You see, this is the primary reason I cannot agree with the liberals in the US. They always are quick to blame someone else and hold society, as a whole, responsible for individual actions. I don't see that thought process as being any different than blaming cars for drunk-driving accidents. I don't particularly care about the reason behind the criminal activity. They know it is wrong when they do it and, individually, they need to be held accountable. Midnight basketball is not going to help. Wanna change that? Start adopting out the babies of permanent welfare mothers to families who can, and will, care for them. Allow parents to spank their kids again for misbehavior. Put prayer back in school... I can go on, but those things will happen with the very same chance as you coming to my door to try to take my guns.

I don't trust humans in general. As a race we have 2 bad tendencies:
1) To let our emotions override our better judgement.
2) To do something just because we can

You are real close to making the perfect example that illustrates the core beliefs that drives those who lean to the left. It is my contention that those who cannot trust anyone else cannot be trusted themselves.

So, basically, I believe that they are projecting their own weaknesses. This belief system is very evident in people like Hillary Clinton and Nancy Polosi, Schumer, Kennedy and the rest of the lot. They believe that you cannot make the right choices for yourself and are not capable of going through life without their wisdom and guidance. They want power over the people because it is the only thing that gives them self worth and importance. They are not concerned with of the people, by the people, and for the people. They feel that you are not bright enough in their eyes to allow you any power to make your own decisions. And that's because they don't trust humans either. It's kinda like... You can't do it... we will do it for you.

...some of you have this nice little utopian dream...

I don't think you are allowed to use this sequence of words in a sentence, since all the pipe dreams seem to be... in your basket. Sorry... I couldn't resist. It was intended as humor.

Fantastic debate!

I'm half inclinded to break it with the expected, full frontal assault of turrets cursing and out lashes...but honestly I'm not that involved in the argument! I agree with most of what is being said, and admire Firestart's holding his ground. It'd be nice to be able to uphold those utopian ideas, but perhaps utopia was conceived as an ideal and not as what is a reality.

It's a lot harder to get that cat back in the bag once it's out. Humans are known to use tools to make their jobs easier. It's what we do. For good or evil those tools would be used.

Self defense would be nice, if you were close enough to use it. Since the begining we have been throwing something (rock, spear, etc...) to make the chance of self defense not a factor.

I'm not a fan of guns any more than I am a fan of evil. Weapons exist, and always will. As will evil, as will good.

Were am I going with this, no where. There IS no begining or end to a debate like this. However, that does not mean we should not discuss it!

I'm rather impressed that there has not been an out lashing of personal insults yet!

That just makes me want to insult

game on! :

C utz

In Sptember of 2004, in his bid for the office of President,
John Kerry paid a visit to Boone County, West Virginia.
He attended a Labor Day picnic that was hosted by
the United Mine Workers Union at Racine.

Kerry stood before the crowd and loudly proclaimed
his STRONG support for the Second Amendment.
He accused the Republicans and Bush of being
anti - Second Amendment.

The crowd cheered wildly

The next day he was without a doubt addressing
a group of soccer moms calling for a ban on guns.

I'm sure this crowd squealed loudly.



Terry

Bill,
If a person is willing to hurt another human being just because they exist, that's not your garden variety criminal. It's a mentally diseased individual. With proper support, we can either treat them to become functioning members of the society or keep them locked up in mental facilities, depending on the nature of their mental disease and their response to treatment. Most court systems in the world recognize the mental disease/defect defense as legitimate. In most cases it's not the individual's fault that he/she is mentally ill, often with violent tendencies. This is pure logic and has nothing with my political views.
You are mentioning this as a weak example, but you are using one too, as a miniscule percentage of the general population ends up victimized by violent criminals. A good chunk of those victims are criminals themselves, victims of rivalry or too much posturing.
I am not saying that prohibition will completely eliminate guns, but if implemented correctly, it will REDUCE the number of guns available to the criminal element. Another misunderstanding was that I was particularly afraid of criminals. Even though I take necessary precautions by being street-aware and projecting a strong image, I did quite a bit of enumerating at night, in the slums, populated by dealers, prostitutes and pimps, and exclusively handling refusal cases.
One thing that I AM afraid of is a society where people consider owning an implement specifically designed for killing other human beings their God-given constitutional right.

Ironically, as a Canadian of Serbian/Macedonian origins, I am in favor of the Republicans. The Democrats were the ones who bombed Serbia for defending itself against insurgents, allowed those same insurgents to snipe people travelling on Macedonian highways and refused to officially recognize Macedonia. Since Bush came, Canada's economy has been stronger than ever.
As for Kerry, he's a typical politician. I wouldn't trust him or Bush for that matter as far as I could throw them and their families.

Dylandog...

Your words are just as good as anyone else's here, and, they are welcome fodder... even if you are wrong.

As for the 2nd amendment to the constitution, that had nothing to do with the rights of hunters, target-shooters, or sportsmen, and very little if anything to do with what we... and hence form a militia, but that militia would be “well-regulated” by the state.

You are a good writer and especially good at spin. But, in my opinion, it is just that... spin. That specific argument is used frequently by the left in an attempt to nullify the 2nd amendment. If that were the case, the liberals would have used it in legalese already to confiscate the guns they hate so much.

The argument that counters that misconception is rather lengthy. I can post it, but it would mostly be boring. For the most part, the amendment specifically states "the people". It doesn't say the right of the militia to keep and bear arms. What are the first words in the Preamble? "We, the People, in order to..." The people, being the citizens of the United States.

I already mentioned the latitude given to other amendments while the 2nd is always attacked. How 'bout the right to free speech? With free speech being allowed to burn the American flag or using it as a floor mat to observe a statue of Christ in a vat of urine, for instance. Carry that philosophy over to the 2nd amendment and everyone gets an MP-3 for Christmas.

I don't think you statistic request will do anything. Both sides can come up with what they want to bolster their own arguments. I would venture a guess that most homicides are between criminals. And if that's the case, who cares? One less worthless human in the gene pool. Crimes of passion will still be committed in the same percentages even if guns were never invented. They would just be more messy. I do remember one statistic. You are much more likely to be killed by a doctor than by a gun. It was rather comical the way it was put together. I might be able to find it if someone requests it.

It's a lot harder to get that cat back in the bag once it's out.

Gee, Chris. Where have I heard that before?

Sensei... I liked your post. I think you probably would get involved under the right circumstances. An obvious purse snatching where the criminal is kicking the little ole lady while she is on the ground because she won't let go of the purse. I could see you in the middle of that. It's too bad your student carries guilt over what he did. It was the right thing to do and I'm sure God forgave him a long time ago. If God didn't forgive him... I'm in a heap of trouble.

AZ... I also liked what you had to say.

Ilija... I gotta give you credit for wanting a better world and I think you really believe these misguided notions. I just happen to think you are totally wrong.

Here is my feeling on the matter. Either the wheel should be un-invented and all guns and ability to produce weapons that fire a projectile through pressurized gas should be eliminated, or every one should have one. Yes even the old granny across the street and the serial killer that lives up stairs. Unlimited supply takes away the power that comes from inequality. I carry a gun at almost all times, with very few exceptions, and I would die protecting that right, even if it meant protecting it from enemies on domestic soil including the government. Anyone who thinks that whining about new laws keeps the government in check is naive. Power keeps power in check. The reason we have free speech is because we cannot be silenced and have the ability to forcefully defend our position. The second amendment is the one right that protects all others, without being able to match force with force all you can do is beg for equality. Like the quote says, if it weren’t for guns, we would all be British!

As far as martial arts are concerned its all BS. One of the best Thai boxers in the world was gunned down in traffic 3 years ago in CA, and anyone that says guns should be banned is living in dream land. I can promise you if someone is intent on breaking the law to kill someone, they are not worried about the laws they have to break to acquire the tools to do so.

On another note, I must have missed something because I didnt see anything not civil in any threads about guns abortion or government. However I have learned that its really not worth it to try and change someones mind about the guns issue anymore than it is to change their loyalty to a specific political party. Energy is much better spent on explaining your position to an individual who has not yet decided on where they stand, not arguing your point with someone who already has a strong belief. Furthermore, the part of having freedoms is having to suck it up when someone disagrees with you. I think someone who burns our flag should only be able to do so if they are wrapped up in the flag at the time, but a right is a right, its there for you to make a decision on where you stand and the beauty of it is that people can agree to disagree. I have no problem with those who hate guns and never want to own one, but please dont try and take them away from me, after all, I dont try to take away your right to whine and complain about your cause of the week, but I expect you not to try to convert me.

Just remember us gun owners, or many of us at least would be proud to die defending our rights, those of you who are committed to your causes, what would you die for? As long as I go out shooting, I lived well and died proud, so dont you dare attempt to take my means of protection away, especially when I am prepared and equipped to defend myself and my family, if you still don’t like my guns, I’ll let you get slaughtered in the liquor store that gets held up and promise not to interfere on your behalf, after all I wouldn’t want to use those evil weapons on someone who doesn’t appreciate their worth, but I have a feeling your view would change when the bad guy who ignored your silly gun laws is aiming a 45 in your face, but maybe I should wait until you are laying there in a pool of blood next to the brain fragments of what used to be your family to explain why having a gun on you may have meant you would have been able to celebrate your childs next birthday instead of planning their funeral. What I don’t understand is why you aren’t trying and take my car away since so many more innocent people get killed from cars then guns. I also dont understand why you are so committed to putting the blame on the guns and not the people who use them, thats the same as blaming a pen for a poorly written book, where is the accountability????

I would be much more persuasive and make much more sense, but I havent slept in almost 30 hours and Im too tired...I'll write something more eloquent later

Originally Posted by urleebird

Gee, Chris. Where have I heard that before?

I also like the can of worms one. But honestly, My cat was around at the time. I can't seem to find that damn can of worms anywhere though.....

Well, my neatsfoot came in today . As much as I'm enjoying this thread, I have some restoration to tend to.

See ya'll over in "Restoration"!

(Baa!)
C utz

Originally Posted by JLStorm

I would be much more persuasive and make much more sense, but I havent slept in almost 30 hours and Im too tired...I'll write something more eloquent later

Joel,

I do have to say....Your writing is rather well and extensive. Does this mean the ol' shoulder is doing much better? I hope that's not what is keeping you up.

OP! Sorry for changing the subject.
Um, where were we...

OH, yes, granny should own a gun, and fend off big criminally insane thugs...

Game on!
(I really do have restoration work....sorry)

C utz