Thread: Ultimate Test of Civility ~ 2nd Amendment

Firestart wrote:

Owning a gun for protection is making two statements:
1) I am afraid of criminals
2) I don't believe our society is based on laws

1) is simply not true. When I drive a car, I wear a safety belt. When I ride a bicycle, I wear a helmet. When I leave my house, I lock the door. Do I do these things because I am afraid of a car wreck, or of falling off my bike, or of a burglar entering my home? No, these are simple precautions, taken out of common sense, and not motivated by fear. Owning a defensive firearm makes me no more afraid of criminals than owning a security system or dog.

2) is equally untrue. There are laws governing the ownership and use of firearms, and it is the duty of every gun owner to be well-versed in those laws. There are legal conditions that must be met before lethal force may be employed in self defense, and the gun owner who does not learn these may indeed find himself in jail.

You advocate the banning of firearms, citing potential for harmful misuse and the fact that you feel safer without them around. Which position is derived from fear?

Originally Posted by C utz

Joel,

I do have to say....Your writing is rather well and extensive. Does this mean the ol' shoulder is doing much better? I hope that's not what is keeping you up.

OP! Sorry for changing the subject.
Um, where were we...

OH, yes, granny should own a gun, and fend off big criminally insane thugs...

Game on!
(I really do have restoration work....sorry)

C utz

no, it just means Im to tired to care about the pain at this point lol....It actually doesnt really hurt if I type as long as the keyboard is in my lap and I am reclining, but it sure does make me look like a very lazy person hehe

You are mentioning this as a weak example, but you are using one too, as a miniscule percentage of the general population ends up victimized by violent criminals.

This is not true. Even if it were true, would you want the only one to be your mom? I also can't believe you would try to throw an inaccurate percentage my way. I could't even guess how many guys/gals I booked into jail because of assault/robbery charges. Many many hundreds, just by me alone. And I only worked a total of about 1 1/2 years in booking.

It happens more than you can possibly think. There were several attacks on officers leaving work in my 10 years there at the County Jail. Counlesss break-ins of their vehicles. Vandalism, and no less than 8 cars belonging to officers being stolen.

In my 10 years as an officer, I had 4 potentially serious personal confrontations that involved the kind of people you seem to think only possibly needed a hug here and there. Here are two:

• After my shift ended at 11PM, I got dressed back into my civilian clothes and walked the 4 city blocks to where my truck was parked. Two, obvious bangers intercepted my intended path to the parking lot. I only let them get within 10 feet of me before I stopped and looked directly at them, thus getting them to stop as well. One asked if I had any spare change. I reached around to pat my back pocket where I keep my wallet. That opened my coat to purposely expose my pistol in the front of my pants to say, "Sorry bud, I'm broke." The guy saw the Glock and elbowed his buddy to leave. I know I would have possibly gotten hurt had I not had my gun. Saying my case is different because of my job wouldn't be totally accurate. I was in civilian clothes. People ought to be able to walk the street without fear of being attacked, even at 11PM.
• On my way to work, which was at 2PM, I parked my truck on a side street about 2 blocks from the jail. As I got out of my truck, a guy came from around the back of my truck, which was in the street, to demand, "Hey man, give me a cigarette." I replied, "Not today, bud." He got immediately angry and took a combative stance that I was all too familiar with. Among some other things, I told him to move on. "Well, fu** you, you white honkie MF." After he reached around with his right hand to the back of his pocket I addressed him by name because I recognized him as a past guest of the jail. I opened my shirt to grab the butt of my Glock and calmly said, "If you bring a knife out of that pocket, Moore, I will put one directly between your worthless eyes." His response? "Oh... Oh, sorry officer, I was just having a bad day. I told him it was only going to get worse if he didn't get the F*** out of here.

These were not mentally ill people. They are merely predators. That's the part I don't think you get. As a matter of fact, most mentally ill people are more likely to hurt themselves than anyone else. Usually, they are not violent. When you have been around these people for a while, it's pretty easy to peg them as ding dongs or just plain ole asswipes.

I cant tell you how many times I have been with friends and family who hate guns who have asked in a panic "do you have your gun on you" because they have been scared we were being followed, or being set up for a car jacking, or about to get mugged.

Its so funny how people hate guns when its convenient for them, but in a split second expect me, the one they despise for my beliefs, to become the guardian angle. I havent mentioned to any of them yet, that I havent decided whether it would be worth my time and possible legal issues for me to defend their life, as far as I am concerned they should have had a gun. After all, are they going to run to my side if I am in trouble...I think not. Having a gun in public, is the equivelent to ordering a pizza in college...all of a sudden you have a lot of friends coming out of the woodwork when the time is convenient for them.

Oh and those of you that think you can fight your way out of a situation...you have been watching to much tv. Prior to the onset of my shoudler injuries 2 years ago, I was a competitive fighter, weighing in at 252 pounds at 5'9" I had a shaved head was benching far more than I weigh and over all was able to lift 3x my weight when it came to deadlifts and other weight natural movements, so not only was I fast but I was a big mother, the kind of guy that people crossed the street when they saw me coming even though I am about as gentle as a puppy. This does not keep people who are in groups from trying something and even though I could have easily taken care of two guys, usually its groups of 4 or 5 cowards that gang up on people. I was realistic, if 4 or 5 people started beating the crap out of me, my only chance was to shoot one and run or hope the others start running when they see their buddies brain fragments on their clothing.

Originally Posted by Feng_Li

1) iYou advocate the banning of firearms, citing potential for harmful misuse and the fact that you feel safer without them around. Which position is derived from fear?

Wow. Absolutely stunning, irrefutable argument. This is one subject I will, for the most part, stay away from. I'm one of those passionate persons, unable to resist call the bullshit anti-gun arguments bullshit. And they are. There is no good, reasoned argument against the legal, lawful ownership of firearms. No, not one.

I admire you Firestart, as well, for sticking to your "guns", but you have not presented one single argument based on objective fact; merely your feelings on the subject, which is the bane of all arguments against private gun ownership. The first thing Hitler and Stalin did when they took over was to disarm the populace. Once the populace didn't have the psychological edge owning the means to defend themselves against a superior force brings, they became sheep, easily led through cowardice to resistance. Your old signature used to say (paraphrased) that the downfall of any system of government was that it was run by humans. What happened to that philosophy? If humans are inherently fallible, and power corrupts, then wouldn't the readily available means to correct that imbalance be an absolute necessity? Bottom line (and I'm a police officer...for the government) is that if the government has guns, I want them. If only the police have guns, you live in a police state. It is the right...screw that...it's the responsibility of every man to defend himself and his family from those who would do them harm. To rely on the government to do it for you is the most insidious form of cowardice imaginable. Police respond to crimes, usually too late to help you or the ones you love. It's up to you to defend them.

Say all guns were rounded up and banned. Criminals still have money...they can buy a CNC machine and crank them out by the thousands. Building a gun is easy. Even if you ban them, they'll still exist, and criminals will find a way to obtain them, even if they have to make them themselves (and if you don't believe they can, you're a fool). Anybody who has ever worked in a prison is constantly amazed at the ingenuity of criminals with nothing to do but figure out ways to find better, more efficient ways of doing crime. They don't work, so their minds aren't occupied with normal concerns like paying bills...they figure out ways of making more money. They're very good at it.

The type of law enforcement I do now is predicated on the fact that 99% of the people I deal with have guns. Does that bother me? No. It's a truism, but an armed society is a polite society.

If you really want your mind changed, check out the gunfight books by Massad Ayoob (Stressfire is the first one that comes to mind).

That being said, I'm a firm believer that every right comes with a responsibility. Given today's climate and sensitivity of sheeple, along with exploding populations and closer living with other humans, I believe every gun owner should be familiar with their weapon, and be trained in some shape, form, or fashion, in its use. That makes for safer, wiser, and more effective gun owners, which ultimately helps private gun ownership's cause. Yes, there will always be obnoxious cowboys who substitute a gun for brains and a dick. Training would mitigate that somewhat, and ostracize those who misuse firearms.

My $.02.

I don't know why I didn't think to dig this up before...........Bill this is for you!





Enjoy, you earned it

Not to mention some of the cities where I would least like to be like NYC, Camden & Newark NJ, Washington DC, etc all have the most strict gun laws, yet also have some of the worst crime, go figure lol. In fact I think camden, which has the second most scrict gun laws outside of DC was voted the most violent city or something along those lines the last few years in a row. And as far as washington, if you arent in the good area, you might as well just not bother stopping for red lights, because your gonna end up walking home if you live through the car jacking and severe beating that will be administered.

Originally Posted by Sec162

I don't know why I didn't think to dig this up before...........Bill this is for you!



Enjoy, you earned it

ICKKKK!!!!!!!!!! I freakin hate worms. I am not scared of snakes, blood, spiders, or big tough guys...but worms are my freakin cryptonite yuck yuck yuck....blah

Oh oh oh, this one is for you also.




I agree more parents need to have a hands on approach.

ICKKKK!!!!!!!!!! I freakin hate worms. I am not scared of snakes, blood, spiders, or big tough guys...but worms are my freakin cryptonite yuck yuck yuck....blah

Not to worry JL, you wont need a firearm against worms. A Red Rider will work fine, but of course you know "you'll shoot your eye out"!