Thread: How is this possible?

Hirlau, obviously you have a lot of experience dealing with people like this, so you know much better than I do but it is just sad to see people who would rather waste their lives than contribute to this world in a positive way. Such as life I suppose.

Well,, my experience with problems like this & $1.00; won't even get me a cup of ice coffee at Duncan Donuts these days.
When you say "people" , who are you referring to?

Having been homeless at one point in my life, I think I need to step away from this thread.
Unsubscribed.

Sorry, if my post contributed to it. I only wanted to reveal a few facts that most people don't get to see.
You & I have always gotten along great, Harley.
Please don't be angry with me or what I did for a living.

Originally Posted by InHonorOfRay

Hirlau, obviously you have a lot of experience dealing with people like this, so you know much better than I do but it is just sad to see people who would rather waste their lives than contribute to this world in a positive way. Such as life I suppose.

My sister is a social worker so I know a bit about some of the problems.
Once you are homeless, you are untouchable.

You have no street address anymore, so
1) no bank will register you
2) you can't get work
3) can't get any sort of legal or government paperwork sorted out
4) can't renew any sort of ID, passport or drivers license. Not even a library card.

Once you are homeless, you are an outcast, and it takes incredible effort AND a lot of help from a lot of overworked social workers to act as a go-between for the paperworks to get back on your feet. Once you are homeless, you are human debris and society paves right over you without even picking you up.

And plenty of people get homeless through no fault of their own, except perhaps the fault of having trusted the wrong person or having made the mistake of not having the proper insurance or just plain having made a mistake. People dont' wake up one day with the desire to throw it all away and become homeless.

If she remains homeless it is most likely not because she doesn't have any way at all to turn her life around. She can't find real work, and the only types of work she can do either stigmatize her further or are plain illegal. And once she does it out of necessity and gets caught, finding work will forever be impossible.

Don't be too quick to blame her situation on laziness or lack of community spirit.

@ OCDShaver: she can be a victim AND a criminal. The 2 don't exclude each other.
Right now she probably can't do anything except choose between dying or survive through petty crime.

Many of these people in my opinion should be sectioned indefinitely under the mental health act, most of them are what I would class as criminally insane, now to me there's an huge difference being criminally insane than just being a criminal, as criminals usually understand right & wrong and sometimes can feel remorse and change and turn their lives around when given the opportunity, where as people who are criminally insane never ever will feel remorse don't have any idea what's right or wrong, or even have a second thought about the consequences of their actions as you would expect from someone who is mentally ill, I would categories most of these people as sociopath's, it's sad but there's no way should many of these people ever be allowed on the streets.


Profile of the Sociopath




Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Originally Posted by Bruno

My sister is a social worker so I know a bit about some of the problems.
Once you are homeless, you are untouchable.

You have no street address anymore, so
1) no bank will register you
2) you can't get work
3) can't get any sort of legal or government paperwork sorted out
4) can't renew any sort of ID, passport or drivers license. Not even a library card.

Once you are homeless, you are an outcast, and it takes incredible effort AND a lot of help from a lot of overworked social workers to act as a go-between for the paperworks to get back on your feet. Once you are homeless, you are human debris and society paves right over you without even picking you up.

And plenty of people get homeless through no fault of their own, except perhaps the fault of having trusted the wrong person or having made the mistake of not having the proper insurance or just plain having made a mistake. People dont' wake up one day with the desire to throw it all away and become homeless.

If she remains homeless it is most likely not because she doesn't have any way at all to turn her life around. She can't find real work, and the only types of work she can do either stigmatize her further or are plain illegal. And once she does it out of necessity and gets caught, finding work will forever be impossible.

Don't be too quick to blame her situation on laziness or lack of community spirit.

Bruno, I completely agree with what you said, it is extremely difficult to get out of a situation like she is in and you have to do what you have to do to survive. But to not try because because it is very difficult also isn't right. It is a double edged sword.

I also didn't mean for this to turn into a argument of how members feel about the church. I was just surprised someone could actually get arrested that many times. But on SRP any forum post can go in any direction with just one comment!

You know, the one thing I haven't really read in this thread, though earcutter and Hirlau briefly touched on it, is that this woman has been ARRESTED 396 times, not CONVICTED. If I recall correctly, you are still innocent until proven guilty in America (though an argument is being made that that is becoming untrue). We simply don't know how many convictions this woman had.

The police can arrest you for any infraction, but it is up to a judge (or jury, depending on if you invoke your right to a trial by a jury of your peers) to decide your fate. Now, think about the word "judge". That, to me, implies discretion and weighing the facts and circumstances surrounding a particular situation in which a crime was allegedly committed. Furthermore, if a law is on the books, in certain states you have what's called "Jury Nullification". For those of you who don't know what that is, it's when a jury can find you not guilty of committing a crime, even though the law and evidence demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that you in fact have. If the jury feels that the statute is is not valid, and should not be considered a crime, they can find you not guilty and at the same time actually change the law. It's all dependent on discretion.

The most common demonstration of using discretion when determining if a crime has been committed is stealing a loaf bread. If the intent was filled with malice, then absolutely the person should be judged as guilty of committing a crime. If the person was starving, and having no other option, stole it to provide for themselves and their starving children, would you send that person to jail?

Don't focus to heavily on the details of that illustration. I know that we have plenty of choices to help us get on our feet in this country, and I really feel that if you put your mind to anything you can accomplish it with enough time and determination. I was simply trying to show how a judge or jury might look at the particulars of a case involving a homeless woman who had been arrested 396 times. I certainly imagine she has seen the inside of a jail cell (not a holding cell) more than once, however, I can certainly see how it's possible she hasn't been locked away permanently.

For all we know, the woman is harmless and simply lazy. She may have decided it's better to be a freeloader than have to work. Or maybe she's mentally ill and incapable of being a responsible and productive member of society. And, as such, while sleeping in the doorway of a local business was arrested for loitering or trespassing. Maybe in her state of mental illness, she thought the officer was demon coming to kill her and assaulted the officer. Maybe she was coherent and has no respect for law or authority, and spit in the officer's face. Either way, she now has an assault charge added. Then, since she has no address, she is never informed of her court date for the civil infraction (not criminal) she got for jay walking two months ago. Well, a failure to appear in court charge IS a criminal infraction, and when she's confronted about sleeping in the doorway, she's now charged with failure to appear.

I could continue ad nauseum, but I think you get my point. If not, I'll spell it out plainy... We simply don't know all the facts, and cannot make a sound, valid and final judgement of this woman or the circumstances surrounding her freedom.

We can offer opinions all day long, and I suspect that most of our assumptions are probably correct. But it's merely that... suspicion.

If the law of the land says that I'm to be considered innocent until proven guilty, maybe I should do the same in my judgement of this woman. I'm not saying she's innocent or guilty, only that I need more info before I can make that call.

Oh, and I know I'm opinionated, and truly mean no offense to anyone. I apologize if my words do offend... I'm simply stating my beliefs and viewpoint, and welcome input from different viewpoints as well.