Thread: How is this possible?

Originally Posted by earcutter

OCD - yes I think I could easily call this woman sick. When a person strays out of the societal norm almost once a month... you be sick by "our" definitions.

It's a fact that what people in America call "welfare states," have a marked decrease in not only petty crimes but all crime. There is a reason why America has the largest incarceration rate known to man - America as a whole disagrees with aiding those who do not deserve help because they are too lazy, or sick in the head to do it for themselves.

Sweeping statements for sure, but don't take that as me running down America. I am not - it's the path the country chose. But some might call it spiting your nose... and yes bigspender - we all pay for those decisions in all sorts of ways . You might know that better than most.

Moreover, I am not trying to run down any church either. The reason the church was given not-for-profit status WAS so that it would ease the governments burden and allow for less social programs. That was the mandate... Prove to me otherwise! Research the tax code as I have and pull out that part that states we are going to give churches not-for-profit status for the shear hell of it lol!! You'll note that the government placed ties on the not-for-profit status that many seemingly have conveniently forgotten.

When you step back - you'll note that America's approach to these issues were all good ideas at one time, but ultimately, as we can see they have now failed the populous. This failure is shown in the incredible crime rates and incarceration rates. But that hasn't stopped the populous from still buying into antiquated reasoning in spite of the proof in front of them. Thoughts like, "YOU are personally responsible for those actions." when that person is clearly unable to think clearly LOL!!!


It's all cyclical and in time, hopefully it'll be corrected. In the mean time we'll have to endure the consequences of not following through with a plan that is failing...

Though I do love these conversations - Note I am not making this stuff up lol -this can all be proven and was proven to me in my countless econ classes - but more so by a certain one professor who I might add; doesn't believe it'll ever get better and has become a staunch libertarian and gun rights advocate lol. That in itself is rather spooky right there!

I'll go one more round with you and then I have to get back to work. You call them sick, I call them criminal. The implied difference is in who is the victim. In your version, this woman is a victim. In my world, she is a criminal. Big difference there.

You talk about our prisons and how full they are. Keep in mind there is another liberal policy behind that. The last statistic I saw on it had 30% of the prison population belonging to illegal aliens. But I agree with one statement you make in that our policies have failed and resulted in more of the same. But the policies that I see that have failed began with the Roosevelt and the New Deal, further followed up by Johnson and the Great Society. None of it has worked, none of has changed a thing. We pump billions of dollars into social programs AND prisons, the problem persists. Why? Because as you say, these individuals can't think for themselves. And why? Because we are constantly being told that we are victims, not criminals. Because after being arrested several hundred times you can still walk free. Because the gov't encourages you to get on food stamps, tells you it will give you retirement, educate you (yeah, right), cloth you, feed you, and give you medical attention. When they have coddled you to the point to where you can think for yourself, like a child, you probably are no longer able to think clearly. In the end, you can debate these specifics forever. But ask yourself if as a society, politically, socially, are we more liberal today than 75 years ago or more conservative? And what direction are we headed with all of these debated issues and problems? Are we conquering them or are the conquering us? Take another lesson from your former professor. He's on to something.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I'll go one more round with you and then I have to get back to work. You call them sick, I call them criminal. The implied difference is in who is the victim. In your version, this woman is a victim. In my world, she is a criminal. Big difference there.

You talk about our prisons and how full they are. Keep in mind there is another liberal policy behind that. The last statistic I saw on it had 30% of the prison population belonging to illegal aliens. But I agree with one statement you make in that our policies have failed and resulted in more of the same. But the policies that I see that have failed began with the Roosevelt and the New Deal, further followed up by Johnson and the Great Society. None of it has worked, none of has changed a thing. We pump billions of dollars into social programs AND prisons, the problem persists. Why? Because as you say, these individuals can't think for themselves. And why? Because we are constantly being told that we are victims, not criminals. Because after being arrested several hundred times you can still walk free. Because the gov't encourages you to get on food stamps, tells you it will give you retirement, educate you (yeah, right), cloth you, feed you, and give you medical attention. When they have coddled you to the point to where you can think for yourself, like a child, you probably are no longer able to think clearly. In the end, you can debate these specifics forever. But ask yourself if as a society, politically, socially, are we more liberal today than 75 years ago or more conservative? And what direction are we headed with all of these debated issues and problems? Are we conquering them or are the conquering us? Take another lesson from your former professor. He's on to something.

Excellent post.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I'll go one more round with you and then I have to get back to work. You call them sick, I call them criminal. The implied difference is in who is the victim. In your version, this woman is a victim. In my world, she is a criminal. Big difference there.

You talk about our prisons and how full they are. Keep in mind there is another liberal policy behind that. The last statistic I saw on it had 30% of the prison population belonging to illegal aliens. But I agree with one statement you make in that our policies have failed and resulted in more of the same. But the policies that I see that have failed began with the Roosevelt and the New Deal, further followed up by Johnson and the Great Society. None of it has worked, none of has changed a thing. We pump billions of dollars into social programs AND prisons, the problem persists. Why? Because as you say, these individuals can't think for themselves. And why? Because we are constantly being told that we are victims, not criminals. Because after being arrested several hundred times you can still walk free. Because the gov't encourages you to get on food stamps, tells you it will give you retirement, educate you (yeah, right), cloth you, feed you, and give you medical attention. When they have coddled you to the point to where you can think for yourself, like a child, you probably are no longer able to think clearly. In the end, you can debate these specifics forever. But ask yourself if as a society, politically, socially, are we more liberal today than 75 years ago or more conservative? And what direction are we headed with all of these debated issues and problems? Are we conquering them or are the conquering us? Take another lesson from your former professor. He's on to something.

OCD - I love you but you can't suck and blow at the same time. You can't claim that the government has got us so messed up that it renders us mindless, and then also say you are responsible for your own actions... Which one is it lol.

As for my Prof lol - Becoming a gun nut is a privilege (sorry - Right) we have here in America. It shouldn't be the last resort of a society that is so broken people feel they need guns as a recourse from the poor and mentally handicapped! SERIOUSLY!! What does that say in America when you are so terrified of your own countrymen that you feel you need a gun!! (note I love guns)

You ask me if I think America is more conservative today than it once was... let me state this - if by conservative you mean Americans have lost more of their rights in the last 15 years to big government than ever before - then we are more conservative. If by conservative you mean big business has grown so much that they have so much power that they not only run your government, but your social lives as well... then we are more conservative. Not to mention that the growth in the divide between rich and poor is staggering!!

If conservative means a doctor can betray his/her Hippocratic oath because of religious reasoning as they can here in KS... WAY more Conservative!!

I sense that you are a bit right-leaning and take my promotion of social programs as a leftest ideology. That's fair - that's the mindset the right has tried so very hard to instill on the masses (and won I think). But I can show you models however - countless models - that providing adequate welfare is CONSIDERABLY more fiscally responsible than the costs we are inuring today to make sure the poor stay in line lol.

Just so you know - I am a fiscal conservative. That might be hard for you (many) to believe, but take my word for it - giving those who wish to do nothing more than mooch off of society is actually cheaper than policing, housing... and lets not forget how much the legal system costs!!

This whole system we have created is WAY more expensive and leads to a WAY bigger government, with WAY too many powers than it would were we to merely dole out some cash lol!! Did I say WAY more yet LOL!!

My brand of conservatism would see those aforementioned issues changed... not for the love of humanity. But for the love of country!!

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

Years ago it was the local church that held communities responsible for having standards in that they bridged the wide gap between what was law and what was right. But then again, we've discredited the church, ran God out of every corner of society, and openly mock those that still believe. And then we ask how this can happen?

This is ridiculous. If the church were doing all the good things you claim they are supposed to do, how can they be discredited? May be the first thing people associate with 'christians' being 'hypocrites' is because that's how christians have been behaving.
May be if the church in america stopped being about advancing political agenda and accumulating wealth, and instead started to follow the teachings about helping the poor they and the society would fare better? I don't remember hearing or reading about Jesus saying stuff like 'blessed are the rich', or 'work hard to better your life's lot', his preachings seem to revolve around 'help those who are worse off than you', 'do not judge the others', 'do not worry about worldly things', 'if you want to be my follower you would help the least among you'....

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

And again, you are wrong about the charter of the church. Their charter is not to run around giving aid to people like this. In fact, I would argue that this person doesn't need aid but perhaps permanent residence behind bars. In the past, your church and community may have offered moral guidance, perhaps food, or even help get you back on your feet. But they were not there to stop you from hold knives to peoples throats. That part is up to you. YOU are personally responsible for those actions. The church doesn't blow it, you do.

May be if that's not their charter they should get out of the business of associating themselves with Jesus? Because as I pointed out above his teachings are pretty much about the stuff you denounce and think the church has no business with. Not to mention the central doctrine of the mainstream christianity in this country is that god is supposed to completely change people - take killers and rapists and the worst scum and turn them into the nicest people you've ever met.

And, please, don't tell me america used to offer more opportunities 75 years ago than it does now. May be you should take off the pink glasses when you look at how things were 75 years ago - if you happened to have the wrong race or to pray to the wrong god, no matter how hard you tried you were screwed, period. Read some books or even newspapers from back then and you'll get an idea about what life looked like through the eyes of the haves, listen to some folk songs of the time and you'll know how it looked from the side of the have nots.

Originally Posted by InHonorOfRay

Hirlau, obviously you have a lot of experience dealing with people like this, so you know much better than I do but it is just sad to see people who would rather waste their lives than contribute to this world in a positive way. Such as life I suppose.

My sister is a social worker so I know a bit about some of the problems.
Once you are homeless, you are untouchable.

You have no street address anymore, so
1) no bank will register you
2) you can't get work
3) can't get any sort of legal or government paperwork sorted out
4) can't renew any sort of ID, passport or drivers license. Not even a library card.

Once you are homeless, you are an outcast, and it takes incredible effort AND a lot of help from a lot of overworked social workers to act as a go-between for the paperworks to get back on your feet. Once you are homeless, you are human debris and society paves right over you without even picking you up.

And plenty of people get homeless through no fault of their own, except perhaps the fault of having trusted the wrong person or having made the mistake of not having the proper insurance or just plain having made a mistake. People dont' wake up one day with the desire to throw it all away and become homeless.

If she remains homeless it is most likely not because she doesn't have any way at all to turn her life around. She can't find real work, and the only types of work she can do either stigmatize her further or are plain illegal. And once she does it out of necessity and gets caught, finding work will forever be impossible.

Don't be too quick to blame her situation on laziness or lack of community spirit.

@ OCDShaver: she can be a victim AND a criminal. The 2 don't exclude each other.
Right now she probably can't do anything except choose between dying or survive through petty crime.

Many of these people in my opinion should be sectioned indefinitely under the mental health act, most of them are what I would class as criminally insane, now to me there's an huge difference being criminally insane than just being a criminal, as criminals usually understand right & wrong and sometimes can feel remorse and change and turn their lives around when given the opportunity, where as people who are criminally insane never ever will feel remorse don't have any idea what's right or wrong, or even have a second thought about the consequences of their actions as you would expect from someone who is mentally ill, I would categories most of these people as sociopath's, it's sad but there's no way should many of these people ever be allowed on the streets.


Profile of the Sociopath




Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I didn't see anywhere in the article that stated that the woman was diagnosed with any sickness, mental or physical.

What you say has a bit of truth to it. But the article does say, near the bottom of the story, that Ms. Miles has been in and out of mental hospitals during her life, which suggests that she has been diagnosed with some type of unspecified mental illness. Before the 1960s, she would have been institutionalized. However, since then the policy of de-institutionalization of the mentally ill--considered more humane and cost efficient at the time--and depending solely on out-patient medication to control mental patient behavior, which they don't always take as well as cuts to social services may be contributing factors to her story.

I don't necessarily see her story as proof that society has no standards today. As the preceding paragraph suggests, society does have standards, but they do not address the realities of the situation. Today's society is overwhelmed with people beset with mental problems; some more serious than others. In either case, our understanding of and response to the Shermain Miles's of the world is inadequate to the need.

In fact her situation reminds me a lot of Jacob Riis's book, How the Other Half Lives (1890), and its accompanying photographs that depicted the lives of the poor and homeless in NYC at that time--a time when there certainly were strict social standards of the kind you refer to and local churches held communities responsible for maintaining those standards, a belief in God was present in every nook and cranny of society and nobody mocked God-fearing believers.

How The Other Half Lives, by Jacob Riis:

Originally Posted by Bruno

My sister is a social worker so I know a bit about some of the problems.
Once you are homeless, you are untouchable.

You have no street address anymore, so
1) no bank will register you
2) you can't get work
3) can't get any sort of legal or government paperwork sorted out
4) can't renew any sort of ID, passport or drivers license. Not even a library card.

Once you are homeless, you are an outcast, and it takes incredible effort AND a lot of help from a lot of overworked social workers to act as a go-between for the paperworks to get back on your feet. Once you are homeless, you are human debris and society paves right over you without even picking you up.

And plenty of people get homeless through no fault of their own, except perhaps the fault of having trusted the wrong person or having made the mistake of not having the proper insurance or just plain having made a mistake. People dont' wake up one day with the desire to throw it all away and become homeless.

If she remains homeless it is most likely not because she doesn't have any way at all to turn her life around. She can't find real work, and the only types of work she can do either stigmatize her further or are plain illegal. And once she does it out of necessity and gets caught, finding work will forever be impossible.

Don't be too quick to blame her situation on laziness or lack of community spirit.

Bruno, I completely agree with what you said, it is extremely difficult to get out of a situation like she is in and you have to do what you have to do to survive. But to not try because because it is very difficult also isn't right. It is a double edged sword.

I also didn't mean for this to turn into a argument of how members feel about the church. I was just surprised someone could actually get arrested that many times. But on SRP any forum post can go in any direction with just one comment!

This is what you get when you don't have public mental health care. At least she's not stockpiling guns and shooting up the schools.