Thread: Cable damascus?

Paco...planning for the future?

Just read the other day on the Aussie Blade Forum a post from very experienced forger that you only need the borax flux when using a coal or open fire forge, and it is not required when using a gas forge as the LPG/propane only needs oxygen to burn and will get if from anywhere, which since the rust is just Oxide the lpg forge will actually use the rust as an oxygen source also negating the use of the borax
This will also prolong the life of the forge as the borax is very acidic.
Hope other,here can benefit from this also

All other things aside, I would not use kerosene, because having kerosene near forge fire is not the safest thing.

Originally Posted by Substance

Just read the other day on the Aussie Blade Forum a post from very experienced forger that you only need the borax flux when using a coal or open fire forge, and it is not required when using a gas forge as the LPG/propane only needs oxygen to burn and will get if from anywhere, which since the rust is just Oxide the lpg forge will actually use the rust as an oxygen source also negating the use of the borax
This will also prolong the life of the forge as the borax is very acidic.
Hope other,here can benefit from this also

That is a valid consideration. However, since the borax also helps improve contact between layers, it certainly helps.
Most smiths I have talked with use borax even in gas powered forges.
It is true that the acid eats away the lining eventually, but lining isn't terribly expensive and this is a very slow process.

I use charcoal, and tbh, my lining has a finite life to begin with
Charcoal fires burn like the fires of mordor in the fire pit. That is part of the challenge of working with charcoal: positioning the steel at the correct place for what you want to do. It is terribly easy to burn good steel to a crisp in a charcoal fire.

Why would you feel the need to have kerosene near the forge or any flammable solvent for that matter?

Originally Posted by Bruno

All other things aside, I would not use kerosene, because having kerosene near forge fire is not the safest thing.

Originally Posted by JDM61

Why would you feel the need to have kerosene near the forge or any flammable solvent for that matter?

I wouldn't. But if you'd use kerosene as a flux, then
a) it has to be stored somewhere, and chances are people would keep it near the place where they use it, and
b) if you use it as flux, sooner or later it has to go in the fire. It will flare up, and depending on the ambient temperature and the time it spent outgassing, flare up big. A guy I know used gasoline to light a fire, but it was very hot that day, and in the minute that he spent closing the canister and putting it away, so much had evaporated that when he lit it, his legs got 3d degree burns.

Flux is also often applied multiple times during the forging process, which would make it impractical to store it a long way from the forge, and you'd have to allow the materials to cool off significantly each time in order to make it safe to apply kerosene again. Given that you can only conveniently use kerosene on the initial weld, and you'd have to use something like borax on successive heats, there's no reason why you wouldn't use borax to begin with.

It's safer, easier, and more convenient to work with because it can be kept in an open container close to the fire, and sprinkled on top when you stop hammering and right before putting it in the fire.

I know a fellow who is probably the original source of the kerosene story. But, that information, like so much information in bladesmithing, is subject to drifting over time. He keeps his bare metals in liquid storage to prevent them from rusting, not as flux. But, there are also those who work in canned powdered metal patterns and they might use it to burn out all the oxygen in a closed can weld. I'll see him tomorrow and ask him. I'm certain Daryl will get a good laugh to hear how people believe things.

It would burn off too quickly to work well as flux. But, there are those old guys again, who injected liquid BTUs into forges looking for more heat, and it will make a controlled fire improve to a veritable hell to stand near.

I have seen, and done, flux-less welds. When forge and operator conditions are right, it works. When I use flux it tends to be like salting for flavor, just enough to get the job right, not drowning the steel. It does degrade refractories.

If there are any good stories about flux and kerosene that are new to me, I'll share them here.

This puzzle may have been posted before. If so, I'm guilty of a little pride. Please forgive me. A friend of mine and I worked out this billet as a follow-on project to one Daryl showed us a couple years ago. Speaking of low flux welds and projects that are difficult, frankly, working cable is easier. Eventually we'll get to stacking, but we are both quite pleased to simply get here and call it good for now.

As I previously stated, kerosene and other hydrocarbon solutions used as "flux" are applied ONCE to a cold stack for the initial welding process. The purpose of this is to decrease the chanced of a cold shut caused by flux and scale trapped inside the stack. From what i have been told, it prevents scaling by converting into a micro thin layer of carbon when burned which coats the exposed surfaces of the steel and shields them from oxygen. Additional fluxing to seal up the edges, etc., after the billet is hot and has been welded initially are done with borax, etc. What I can tell you from personal experience is that it works very well.
Gasoline and kerosene are different substances with different properties. The flashpoint of kerosene, which is the point where it starts to vaporize and the vapor can be ignited is between 38C for he purest forms like JetA/JP-1 up to 72C for the cruder stuff. For gasoline, that flash point is -43C. That sis why kerosene can be used as lamp or heater fuel.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I wouldn't. But if you'd use kerosene as a flux, then
a) it has to be stored somewhere, and chances are people would keep it near the place where they use it, and
b) if you use it as flux, sooner or later it has to go in the fire. It will flare up, and depending on the ambient temperature and the time it spent outgassing, flare up big. A guy I know used gasoline to light a fire, but it was very hot that day, and in the minute that he spent closing the canister and putting it away, so much had evaporated that when he lit it, his legs got 3d degree burns.

Flux is also often applied multiple times during the forging process, which would make it impractical to store it a long way from the forge, and you'd have to allow the materials to cool off significantly each time in order to make it safe to apply kerosene again. Given that you can only conveniently use kerosene on the initial weld, and you'd have to use something like borax on successive heats, there's no reason why you wouldn't use borax to begin with.

It's safer, easier, and more convenient to work with because it can be kept in an open container close to the fire, and sprinkled on top when you stop hammering and right before putting it in the fire.

Mike, IIRC, I was told about using kerosene and other "hydrocarbon fluids" as "flux" by guys like Fred Rowe ( who used tool cleaning solvent from Tractor Supply) , Ron Newton, the late John White, JW Randall, John Perry, Kyle Royer and Don Hanson(kerosene), Chris Marks (who I believe used #2 diesel) Don Hanson was the guy who told me about using the borax flux for the second pass for the edges. As you said, it is not really a flux and requires he steel to be ground clean, but I do that anyway. Most of he guys that I learned this from describe it as kind of "almost dry" welding as opposed to the "true" dry welding like you get from a sealed cannister, HT foil wrap or sealing up the billet by TIG or MIG welding all of the seams. John White was the first guy that I knew who switch to kerosene for the initially forge weld to avoid the "white lines" at the weld seams partially in mosaic billets. The one caveat that I have heard from some folks is that you should handle the billet VERY gently in the forge as it comes up to heat and not move it around to much as you can disturb the very thin carbon coating.
As for Mr, Meier getting a laugh, i have had the pleasers of meeting him a couple of times and I am sure that he would have a friendly laugh. He has been doing this kind of thing for so long nd has been such an innovator that things that seem almost impossible for most of us are routine for him.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

I know a fellow who is probably the original source of the kerosene story. But, that information, like so much information in bladesmithing, is subject to drifting over time. He keeps his bare metals in liquid storage to prevent them from rusting, not as flux. But, there are also those who work in canned powdered metal patterns and they might use it to burn out all the oxygen in a closed can weld. I'll see him tomorrow and ask him. I'm certain Daryl will get a good laugh to hear how people believe things.

It would burn off too quickly to work well as flux. But, there are those old guys again, who injected liquid BTUs into forges looking for more heat, and it will make a controlled fire improve to a veritable hell to stand near.

I have seen, and done, flux-less welds. When forge and operator conditions are right, it works. When I use flux it tends to be like salting for flavor, just enough to get the job right, not drowning the steel. It does degrade refractories.

If there are any good stories about flux and kerosene that are new to me, I'll share them here.