Thread: Best Stainless for Razors ?

Well, I can understand you, I am a knife guy myself. Noone, never asked me what steel I use for my razors, just one person, who was a knife guy

Originally Posted by strategy8

That's why I ask, it has seemed while in the knife world, labeling what type of steel is used in a blade is the status quo of a quality brand, because us knife enthusiasts want to know, and the mark of "stainless" without specifying is the mark if a generic and inferior blade, in the SR business, just "stainless" seems to be well enough, and there is no push for labeling a type of stainless as the quality brands are trusted to make a quality products, and that seems to be good enough for SR enthusiasts... Being both, the knife enthusiasts in me has the the SR enthusiasts in me to want to know...

Yes the key word is "trust' which has been proven valid since the 1920/30s in vintage stainless steel straight razors. I do understand where you are coming from. As more knife makers turn their hand to making straight razors it will become increasingly necessary for SR user to understand the different stainless steels better also. There really is no long standing proven track record in that area to "trust" on, at least for me.

Bob

I think labeling the steel became important as a transition in marketing in the knife world. The ahem, old guys, could have easily picked a piece of steel from a scrap pile and would have no idea what kind of steel it was. It would still make a fine knife, but the new guys could claim they knew the certain provenance for the steels they used. That left the old guys, with perfectly serviceable knives, lost at a knife show because there was something they could not be certain of in front of a questioning customer. All it takes is the whisper of a doubt to scotch a sale. But then, the cult of personality began to intrude and you didn't buy a knife whose profile you liked or it fit your hand well, as much as you bought a knife by a certain maker who had more cover profiles in the knife rags or went to bigger shows. Personally, I think it got a little out of hand.

By then, it wasn't enough to know it was simply stainless but it had to be ATS34 as different from 154CM (same recipe, different manufacture). And downhill from there to wunderstahl and unobtainium.

There are knifemakers who think razors should do all you list. I'm satisfied you're not one of them.

In my opinion, it was more to do with sheer vastness of the knife market vs. The significantly smaller and specialized SR market, cut throat profiteers, and the sheer vastness of selections in new knife steel alloys (mist of which are not ideal for SR's anyhow)

Considering almost everyone from boyscouts to grandma have a pocket knife some where accessible to them, be it a $5 gas station blade, a key chain knife, a classic slup joint, or a $300+ tactical folder; (and that's not even including the kitchen Cutlery market) whereas hardly anyone possesses straight razors these days, the sheer vastness of that market opens the door to more shady level cut throat companies and corporation looking for a quick buck on the cheap with no regard to quality, (one common practice is rather then investing into a better product, instead buy a well known "brand" or "endorsement" to sell a lesser quality product under a reputable name, like BudK buying kissing crane, hardly the Kissing Cranes of yesteryear, or a $20 "bear grylls" survival Knives made in china w/ mystery steel, or the cheap "gun brand" knives; browning, remington, s&w, etc, who sell/sold the naming rights to whoever is paying, but the average consumer associates it with the gun brand unawares), the trust has been compromised, as well as also it created a larger "need" to stand out in said market, explaining why your knife is not only more exoensive, superior to "just stainless", but also better then the other guys; while "surgical stainless" at a budget price will convince most common folk that it's good enough quality and a bargain, (and for many an average daily user, it very well may be), the guys/companies who are making higher quality products HAVE to stand out, not to mention compete with each other, so s90v, m390, n690co, s35vn, 3v, 52100, all become selling points...

In the much (MUCH) smaller and much more specialized market of SR's, that trust has been established by the top companies; and there really isn't much if any of a real "casual consumer", like Joe Blow the eskimo who wants a cheap folding knife for his upcoming camping trip, and sees a $10 browning at walmart and thinks, " they make decent guns, that MUST BE a decent quality knife," he's also more then likely not thinking about buying a SR to start shaving with, but rather has a bag if disposable bics in his shopping cart; also there is not near as much competition in said market, and the consumers who are in the market, be it professional barbers or you or me who intend on putting a very sharp blade up against our face, typically do our due diligence in research and have a good idea of what brands to trust before making that first purchase, be it a new DOVO or a 100 year old W&B, (thanks largely in part to place like this site right here and the wealth of information provided), not many people wake up one day and decide to put a sharp object up against their face, and run down to the flea market for a $10 special without any research first...

Definitely a bunch of variables at play for sure, and definitely understand the need "not to" advertise since the need isn't there, but what can I say, the knife-guy in me still wants to know...

Fwiw also, ats34 and 154cm, while "almost" identical are actually slightly different recipes, as 154 has a small bit of vanadium and tungsten added to the matrix, 34 does not... Latrobe actually makes a steel identical to ats34, and carpenter's bd4 is closer to identical to 154cm. Ever so slight differences from maker to maker though, so like your grandma's old black Joe cake vs. My grandma's old black Joe cake, the same, but different...

One small nit pick. Browning, as far as I know never made anything themselves but had others make it for them with their brand name on it. Browning has had guns made for them by Husqvarna (Sweden), Fabrique Nationale (Belgium) and Miroku (Japan). Possibly others too. They are an importer with a rep of importing quality products though.

Bob

Originally Posted by strategy8

... as 154 has a small bit of vanadium and tungsten added to the matrix, 34 does not... ...

I don't mind a discussion. Just so we are both on the same page, show me the reference materials you are using, please.

Here's mine: http://www.crucible.com/PDFs//DataSh...54cmv12010.pdf It is of some interest that Crucible neglects to mention minor alloying elements like vanadium and tungsten.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

I think labeling the steel became important as a transition in marketing in the knife world.
.....
By then, it wasn't enough to know it was simply stainless but it had to be ATS34 as different from 154CM ......and unobtainium.
....
There are knifemakers who think razors should do all you list. I'm satisfied you're not one of them.

Mike understands this more than most....
The bit about knowing what steel is used reflects the terrible early transition from carbon steel knives to
stainless knives --- my memory puts the interesting days back when Buck entered the knife market.

Buck made all the Arkansa hones almost worthless and this was long after the carborundum razor
hones all but vanish because of Blue Blades and safety razors.
So one important consideration is how the shaving razor is going to be sharpened.

Another consideration is heat and carbide growth. Carbides help an edge slice but slicing
is bad for razors. Correct heat treatment is a requirement for a razor and is different
from what a butcher or hunter blade maker needs.

Next is machinability and getting a correct shape.

I happen to like the extreme thin grind of many old razors.
It took me years to learn to hone them. The edge was too flexible
and my hand too heavy -- and yes I had less than the best hones.
The point here is hones, steel and grind enable the honemaster.
ATS34 is one of my favorite steels for a working knife but it is difficult to sharpen.
My kitchen knives with a VG10 core challenge all my hones when it is time
to sharpen them -- golly they are hard.

I suspect there is a maximum hardness for any steel before it tends to micro chip
and a minimum hardness below which it cannot hold an edge long enough to finish the save.
We have 100s of years of carbon steel experience... but mostly in secret... Modern tools are
improving edges and steel as we all know -- I know that Feather can hone a much finer edge
than I can hone an open blade. I dislike the Feather edge it is too darn sharp for the first perhaps
second shave.. My personal opinion with the Feather edge tells me that a well ground
razor honed correctly no matter what steel will do the job.

Now if someone will kindly send me a seven day set of stainless steel razors all
slightly different I would be happy to get back with a summary.

It might be magical thinking on my part, but I believe the cpm powdered (for lack of a better word) was nicer to hone and to work with.

Then again my Henckels Inox is sweet to shave with and hone.

Who knows? I have a lot more data points with carbon steels than stainless steels.

Charlie

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

I don't mind a discussion. Just so we are both on the same page, show me the reference materials you are using, please.

Here's mine: http://www.crucible.com/PDFs//DataSh...54cmv12010.pdf It is of some interest that Crucible neglects to mention minor alloying elements like vanadium and tungsten.

I stand corrected; I was actually using the "zKnives" app for quite a while now for easy and convenient quick reference, as it is a great tool for quick reference and comparison of steels, but seeing the actual crucible data sheet on cpm-154cm, as well as cross referencing data sheets from other manufacturers & suppliers of 154cn, it appears none make any mention of either element, (though 2 showed trace amounts if nickle).

Thank you for correcting me on that, I am actually pretty discouraged now in zknives, which has been a great reference tool until now, wondering what other discrepencies might exist within their vast data base of steels, if they could get a rather common, well known steel that has been around for quite some time now, so far off. (It doesn't seem like much, but in the world of steel alloys, that really is a pretty sizeable discrepancy.

I actually sent Crucible an email to definitively clarify the discrepancy themselves so I can hopefully in turn contact the maker of the app to correct it, (if need be).