Thread: Spare time project - Vanadis 23 & Titanium

I should have been more clear. Threat this project and a razor, not a knife. It's obviously fine to work on both at the same time, but separately. They serve very different functions and have very different designs. Can't treat a wrench like a screw driver, though both turn things... Can't treat a razor like a knife, though both cut things.

With that meaning in mind, my pose above should make more sense.

Have you ever shaved with a Vintage straight razor ???? have you taken many of them apart ???

Looking at your sketch you have made a some errors in design and geometry that will cause you problems when you decide to make this a reality, the guys have already pointed out a few..

I would highly suggest you spend some quality time with a Vintage razor and learn about certain things that make them uniquely function as a Straight Razor, and not as a knife..

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I should have been more clear. Threat this project and a razor, not a knife. It's obviously fine to work on both at the same time, but separately. They serve very different functions and have very different designs. Can't treat a wrench like a screw driver, though both turn things... Can't treat a razor like a knife, though both cut things.

With that meaning in mind, my pose above should make more sense.

Ah, yes I understand. I respect the end purpose of my product immensely, hence joining here

The metalurgy and manufacturing process is relatively the same from a razor to a knife to a shearing die, but all are vastly different in their respective end uses and as such require different things. So I'm with you on that part.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Have you ever shaved with a Vintage straight razor ???? have you taken many of them apart ???

Looking at your sketch you have made a some errors in design and geometry that will cause you problems when you decide to make this a reality, the guys have already pointed out a few..

I would highly suggest you spend some quality time with a Vintage razor and learn about certain things that make them uniquely function as a Straight Razor, and not as a knife..

I've got an older one that I use, worn but I keep it sharp.

Other than the blade thickness that I agree on increasing, what do you see as being an issue? Bear in mind this is a sketch and there's always revisions as the process evolves.

Some changes I'll be sketching out later tonight:

Thicken material to about .187"-.200".
Increase blade profile closer to spline.
Design a derlin or alu-bronze washer for the pivot, OR, utilize a bearing sytem ala bodega with tension adjust via custom hardware
Reduce the size of the back end of the 'handle' (not scales in this instance, so we'll call it a handle)
May add some groves for finger and thumb areas

Anything else I'm missing?

Originally Posted by AFisher

I've got an older one that I use, worn but I keep it sharp.

Other than the blade thickness that I agree on increasing, what do you see as being an issue? Bear in mind this is a sketch and there's always revisions as the process evolves.

Don't take this wrong,, But you have designed what we refer to as an RSO (Razor Shaped Object)

You haven't given the Blade size yet, so the Spine thickness is irrelevant at this point in time, vintage razors were designed for a 15° - 17° angle.

The spine relation to the grind looks off, I think you might be creating a honing nightmare there...

I am not familiar to the steel you are using at all, so I have no idea as to it's honing or shaving abilities..
I can tell you that many of the custom guys have tried some of the "Super Steels" and learned the hard way that they don't make for good razors (The Forge sub Forum) Even reading your description tells me quite a bit about the difficulty of working the steel, which decreases my desire to ever hone it, and therefore my desire to shave it...

Your target hardness is REALLY high, your heel is designed in such a way as to interfer with honing, I also have serious doubts as to balance and overall weight, and this is really important for stropping...

The tang although cool looking, doesn't look to be conducive to good stropping, which brings us to the tail, it evolved from where it was as a stubbie, to a useful finger hold for a reason... Yours I am just confused with...

Pivot and action, are a part and function of the scale's flex, tang's angle, combined with the wedge, which in your sketch you don't even have, again this is something that should be obvious to any SR user.

This is just what I see from the sketch, all this should be very very obvious to any SR user, basically you seem to have the ability to make anything you want but "Form Must Follow Function" not the other way around...

My suggestion everytime somebody wants to make a custom razor, is to take one of the most popular designs out there from the past (W&B FBU, Filarmonica #14, DD, etc: etc: ) and try and copy it first, you will learn why the old farts did what they did.. You have to understand what a SR actually is, before you can make one that works...

Again please don't take it wrong, you asked I simply answered...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Don't take this wrong,, But you have designed what we refer to as an RSO (Razor Shaped Object)

You haven't given the Blade size yet, so the Spine thickness is irrelevant at this point in time, vintage razors were designed for a 16° - 17° angle.

The spine relation to the grind looks off, I think you might be creating a honing nightmare there...

I am not familiar to the steel you are using at all, so I have no idea as to it's honing or shaving abilities..
I can tell you that many of the custom guys have tried some of the "Super Steels" and learned the hard way that they don't make for good razors (The Forge sub Forum) Even reading your description tells me quite a bit about the difficulty of working the steel, which decreases my desire to ever hone it, and therefore my desire to shave it...

Your target hardness is REALLY high, your heel is designed in such a way as to interfer with honing, I also have serious doubts as to balance and overall weight, and this is really important for stropping...

The tang although cool looking, doesn't look to be conducive to good stropping, which brings us to the tail, it evolved into where it was as a stubbie, to a useful finger hold for a reason... Yours I am just confused with...

Pivot and action, are a part and function of the scale's flex, tang's angle, combined with the wedge, which in your sketch you don't even have, again this is something that should be obvious to any SR user.

This is just what I see from the sketch, all this should be very very obvious to any SR user, basically you seem to have the ability to make anything you want but "Form Must Follow Function" not the other way around...

My suggestion everytime somebody wants to make a custom razor, is to take one of the most popular designs out there from the past (W&B FBU, Filarmonica #14, DD, etc: etc: ) and try and copy it first, you will learn why the old farts did what they did.. You have to understand what a SR actually is, before you can make one that works...

Again please don't take it wrong, you asked I simply answered...

Not at all. Thanks, that's the help I'm looking for.

Blade is 6/8, with a 30deg incl angle. I usualy sketch things out on paper, then create solid models where things really start to come together in terms of how the grind will work and the dimensioning, etc. Other people do things differently but this way works for me. I'll do my best to expand on theory and adjust accordling:

Idea for the tang was for thumb and finger holds using different grips. if this interferes with ones ability to hone, then that's interesting to me.

Metal hardness I'm not concerned with. Vanadis works well with certain stones for honing, and this material/hardness combination keeps an edge very well. Vanadis can reach the upper 60s so 64 isn't too much for me to keep sharp. I have a nice collection of stones specific for these types of materials for honing.

I think you're 100% correct on the heel(shoulder?). I will probably remove it all together to aid with both manufacturing and servicability. The wedge grind and type of material this is will keep it plenty stiff without the aid of a shoulder ( I believe terms shoulder/heel is interchangable, correct?)

Tail is something I'm very open to. I usualy just use a single finger on mine, so I designed this for one finger. The square edge on the other side was -in theory- to help stablize it when it's fully open. I'm always up to change so perhaps the 'standard' way is best and I can adjust it to suit.

No wedge exists because I was planning on this being a one peice handle, wire cut from titanium. pivot will be adjusted accordingly with either derlin or alu-bronze washers or a bearing assembly (although bearings might be too 'free'). If I lose some EDM time I will revert to waterjet Ti scales with a Sapele wood scale. The ti will be machined out to some degree to allow flex and lighten up the overall package. I aim to have a very ballanced assembly.


Again, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer and correct me on some things. I don't pretend to be an expert on this, but I am eager to learn and produce a banger.

Originally Posted by AFisher

... The metalurgy and manufacturing process is relatively the same from a razor to a knife to a shearing die, but all are vastly different in their respective end uses and as such require different things. ...

I'm glad you use the word "relatively". One of the problems with the heat treatment manuals is that all the test samples were regular polygons and neither knife nor razor shaped. Things do change when you try to apply that data to a sharp angled form like a knife blade and the internal stresses are even more severe in the thin razor section. That you intend to shape this material after heat treatment is probably the most intelligent thing to do.

Bohler Uddeholm steels like the Vanadis series are interesting. Why did you pick an H-13 variant? Other than it meets your desire or curiosity, beard hair does not require a hot working die steel to separate from the face. But I agree with others, you are trying to make your point the hard way. I'll be just as interested as they in how your time and money are spent in the end result.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

I'm glad you use the word "relatively". One of the problems with the heat treatment manuals is that all the test samples were regular polygons and neither knife nor razor shaped. Things do change when you try to apply that data to a sharp angled form like a knife blade and the internal stresses are even more severe in the thin razor section. That you intend to shape this material after heat treatment is probably the most intelligent thing to do.

Bohler Uddeholm steels like the Vanadis series are interesting. Why did you pick an H-13 variant? Other than it meets your desire or curiosity, beard hair does not require a hot working die steel to separate from the face. But I agree with others, you are trying to make your point the hard way. I'll be just as interested as they in how your time and money are spent in the end result.

Hi Mike. Of course! Those heat treat manuals are just a starting point. from there experience helps a lot. I learned a lot from heat treating my own punches and dies as an apprentice, and that's where I learned to leave as much stock as possible for very thin areas, as thin cross sections in heat treat are something to avoid. Since I can grind it using a machine, it will help speed the process and I wouldn't want to do it after by hand, personally. Just a lot of time and caution otherwise.

I picked the Vanadis because I had a perfectly sized offcut from a die I made about 6 years back and it's wear resistance along with toughness *should* in theory translate into a sturdy blade that if ground right will hold an edge for ages. It's also quite stain resistant, as in 6 years it hasn't tarnished even in a humid Ontario garage which is a plus considering the environment of the application. I could pick another metal (I love CPM D2 for instance, fine grain with the qualities of normal D2), but I think this will be a good experiment that could either turn out great, or be something to chalk up to a learning experience. I love doing things against the grain (hardy har har) and trying new things, so I thought since no one has done this, why the heck not!

I hope you guys get a kick out of what becomes of this. Thanks a ton for the interest, and I'd love to keep getting feedback from you guys.

Cheers
a