Thread: Shout out to all the SRP gurus

Originally Posted by Steve1150

Glen, Now I understand why you were ignoring my question about the sharpness of disposable edges. The irony to me is the well-established anti-micro-bevel sentiment in the community. So where can I go or who can I talk to in pursuit of the next level?

Silent HHT? I'm currently ready to progress beyond popping HHT but where is the corner for the forum where this is discussed?

Steve

I wasn't ignoring it and it has nothing to do with a Micro Bevel

To make it simpler The Vorheven paper basically shows that there is about a .01~ difference that could be measured between a DE edge and a SR edge or as a friend of mine would say "A Statistical Anomaly"

Micro beveles have their uses in SR honing

Pretty easy and simple,, Hone at one angle,,, add a layer of tape and finish at a higher angle

Here is the Duh, moment that many miss

If that improves the edge, then it would make sense to create the whole bevel at that angle which would create a stronger more durable edge ...

Simple straight forward geometry


Theory # 2 on Micro/secondary/tertiary beveling:


On a DE edge it is used to mechanically create a Convexed bevel..

On a SR this convexing is created by repeated stropping so that Micro-bevels are a waste of time

Not really a true believer myself on that one but there it is for ya


Edit Micro bevel use / theory #3

Sorry forgot one that is also used by many of us that hone Restores

A reversing micro bevel

Where we start at a higher bevel angle (more tape) with highly aggressive DMT plates to set and establish the pre-bevel, then dropping the angle (less tape) and setting the bevel at 1k or so eliminating the harsh stria that is only at the very fin of the pre-bevel, so they do not extend down into the actual bevel and create chipping issues at the higher grits

Originally Posted by Steve1150

Silent HHT?

Yup, I remember seein' one of those back in '08. Was reel scary lookin' too.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Steve

I wasn't ignoring it and it has nothing to do with a Micro Bevel

To make it simpler The Vorheven paper basically shows that there is about a .01~ difference that could be measured between a DE edge and a SR edge or as a friend of mine would say "A Statistical Anomaly"

Micro beveles have their uses in SR honing

Pretty easy and simple,, Hone at one angle,,, add a layer of tape and finish at a higher angle

Here is the Duh, moment that many miss

If that improves the edge, then it would make sense to create the whole bevel at that angle which would create a stronger more durable edge ...

Simple straight forward geometry


Theory # 2 on Micro/secondary/tertiary beveling:


On a DE edge it is used to mechanically create a Convexed bevel..

On a SR this convexing is created by repeated stropping so that Micro-bevels are a waste of time

Not really a true believer myself on that one but there it is for ya


Edit Micro bevel use / theory #3

Sorry forgot one that is also used by many of us that hone Restores

A reversing micro bevel

Where we start at a higher bevel angle (more tape) with highly aggressive DMT plates to set and establish the pre-bevel, then dropping the angle (less tape) and setting the bevel at 1k or so eliminating the harsh stria that is only at the very fin of the pre-bevel, so they do not extend down into the actual bevel and create chipping issues at the higher grits

Well it's been a bit disappointing to learn that straights are accepted as ".01" less sharp then DE. Part of the hype that got me interested in straight edges in the first place was people claiming that they were sharper than Gillette edges. It's disappointing to be uncovering that those are just good ol' boys talking from non-mouth-orifices.

Incidentally, ".01~" μm?

The Duh moment is not lost on me, but the fact is that this logic is missing a few elements.
1. The length of the final bevel may be significantly shorter then the hair is thick. I'm looking at these blades and just guessing without proper tools that the last micro-bevel is only about 18-30 μm long. So if you are attacking a 125 μm thick hair it means that both angles are in play and both will have ability to influence cutting. This is not the case if you commit the greater angle to the whole bevel.
2. The potential benefits of a micro bevel may not be limited to the angle of attack. It's also about the keenness of the apex and what the steel is capable of forming. Essentially depending on the steel a given razor may be capable of forming a keener edge at 20 degrees then it can even take at 16.
3. This is a bit of a reach, but I've been wondering if you put an increased angle on the edge, is it not then natural to lower the angle you are holding the razor against your skin? Factoring in that the shaving cut is a push cut and not a slice. It's also traveling at an angle to the hair not 90 degrees, this makes the leading bevel more significant then the trailing in terms of attacking the target hair. Increased bevel and decreased angle of attack means that the trailing bevel would be more parallel to the skin. I'm wondering if this could be a contributing factor to why some guys are swearing by the double bevel from a comfort perspective.

I accept your theory #2 as a high probability.

BTW have you ever tried a harsher angle yourself? Not just a layer of tape but maybe +5 degrees.

PS, please send me a link for this paper you keep talking about. I search for it every time I see you mention it and have not yet found it. Tonight I'm getting results pertaining to paper manufacturing and paper rolling, etc. I've tried spelling it the various ways that I've seen you spell and no dice.

Originally Posted by Steve1150

Well it's been a bit disappointing to learn that straights are accepted as ".01" less sharp then DE. Part of the hype that got me interested in straight edges in the first place was people claiming that they were sharper than Gillette edges. It's disappointing to be uncovering that those are just good ol' boys talking from non-mouth-orifices.

Incidentally, ".01~" μm?

The Duh moment is not lost on me, but the fact is that this logic is missing a few elements.
1. The length of the final bevel may be significantly shorter then the hair is thick. I'm looking at these blades and just guessing without proper tools that the last micro-bevel is only about 18-30 μm long. So if you are attacking a 125 μm thick hair it means that both angles are in play and both will have ability to influence cutting. This is not the case if you commit the greater angle to the whole bevel.
2. The potential benefits of a micro bevel may not be limited to the angle of attack. It's also about the keenness of the apex and what the steel is capable of forming. Essentially depending on the steel a given razor may be capable of forming a keener edge at 20 degrees then it can even take at 16.
3. This is a bit of a reach, but I've been wondering if you put an increased angle on the edge, is it not then natural to lower the angle you are holding the razor against your skin? Factoring in that the shaving cut is a push cut and not a slice. It's also traveling at an angle to the hair not 90 degrees, this makes the leading bevel more significant then the trailing in terms of attacking the target hair. Increased bevel and decreased angle of attack means that the trailing bevel would be more parallel to the skin. I'm wondering if this could be a contributing factor to why some guys are swearing by the double bevel from a comfort perspective.

I accept your theory #2 as a high probability.

BTW have you ever tried a harsher angle yourself? Not just a layer of tape but maybe +5 degrees.

PS, please send me a link for this paper you keep talking about. I search for it every time I see you mention it and have not yet found it. Tonight I'm getting results pertaining to paper manufacturing and paper rolling, etc. I've tried spelling it the various ways that I've seen you spell and no dice.

Seems like you have it all figured out

Originally Posted by Steve1150

Thank you for the friendly offer to hone for me. Is it possible that having it honed would just trigger discontent? Here is where I was able to get it. I was able to get it cutting hair 1/2 inch away from the skin. I also managed to get thicker hairs to split down the side like whittling a stick. My current challenge is getting that performance along the entire blade. It's not that sharp in all spots. Any advice would be appreciated. But at the moment I'm pretty happy with the shave I'm getting. Totally afraid that if I experience a truly shave ready razor, I might become spoiled on it, destroying my current state of self satisfaction. My offering to hone the razor is so that you learn properly. First learn to shave, then touch up a razor, then to hone.
PS
"sharp" to me is passing the leaf on water test. I challenge any of the pros here to post a video of one of their razors passing that test. No test you can offer can compare to a shave test.

It's obvious you have no interest in learning from someone, you are going to do it your way. I truly wish you all the best & hope you get it all right. If you do, you will look back and think "boy, sure would have been easier if _______".

If you don't learn to shave, touch, and hone...it's just due to your wanting to do it your way instead of the proven easiest and best way.

You see, there are some here who can do literally all aspects of wet shaving...from shaving, stropping, maintaining a blade, honing a blade, restoring a blade, and even make top notch blades. These are the ones to listen and learn from, not challenge.

I for one am thankful to those I have learned from.

Originally Posted by ScottGoodman

It's obvious you have no interest in learning from someone, you are going to do it your way. I truly wish you all the best & hope you get it all right. If you do, you will look back and think "boy, sure would have been easier if _______".

If you don't learn to shave, touch, and hone...it's just due to your wanting to do it your way instead of the proven easiest and best way.

You see, there are some here who can do literally all aspects of wet shaving...from shaving, stropping, maintaining a blade, honing a blade, restoring a blade, and even make top notch blades. These are the ones to listen and learn from, not challenge.

I for one am thankful to those I have learned from.

Almost everything I know about razors I have learned from someone on SRP. Of course I want to learn from others. But stating that there is only one way to properly learn from others is just as sad a saying that there is only one proper way to hone a razor.

Originally Posted by ScottGoodman

It's obvious you have no interest in learning from someone, you are going to do it your way. I truly wish you all the best & hope you get it all right. If you do, you will look back and think "boy, sure would have been easier if _______".

If you don't learn to shave, touch, and hone...it's just due to your wanting to do it your way instead of the proven easiest and best way.

You see, there are some here who can do literally all aspects of wet shaving...from shaving, stropping, maintaining a blade, honing a blade, restoring a blade, and even make top notch blades. These are the ones to listen and learn from, not challenge.

I for one am thankful to those I have learned from.

Like I said above. I wish you well in your journey, however rough it may be.

Originally Posted by ScottGoodman

Like I said above. I wish you well in your journey, however rough it may be.

<HUGE GRIN>
You make it sound like this is supposed to be one of life's big challenges. Here is some free advice for you in return for all the advice you have given me... Lighten up a bit. It's just an alternative shaving method. It really shouldn't be anything to get so serious about. Calm down, enjoy it, and learn to help others enjoy it in their own way.

FYI, the journey is fun! If it wasn't enjoyable to fail and succeed at something like this, I wouldn't be doing it.

Thank you for wishing me luck

Originally Posted by Steve1150

<HUGE GRIN>

FYI, the journey is fun! If it wasn't enjoyable to fail and succeed at something like this, I wouldn't be doing it.

Thank you for wishing me luck

Sounds like you will have a long and enjoyable journey[emoji1]