Thread: Some rambling thoughts...

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Glen, you made a great point about your personal razors. However, everyone reading this and other threads need to keep in mind what you and Lynn are constantly saying: Even though that's the type of edge you guys prefer, it isn't necessarily what others will. Yours or Lynn's or any other person's preference (especially mine ) don't really have any bearing on the preferences of others... They are simply what we prefer after lots of experimentation. Back to the tractor analogy, you're right on with the scraper (in fact, I said big farmer was absolutely right about his recommendations), but I think (especially) new guys would be much better served with discussions about the cheap bit of kit that will get them to greatness... I'm pretty sure we're on the same page there from our discussions

I think the word you are missing in my point is, consistency,,

In fact, that word side tracks most every discussion on honing because we get lost in the last 20 strokes of what is the best "Finisher".... More typing on all the shaving forums is dedicated to the last finishing strokes, when that is the easiest part of honing...
Basically anyone can do the finishing, at least anyone with a lick of sense...

Back about 3 years ago on this forum some very smart fellows proved this point quite effectively by offering bevel sets to new honers...
They set the bevel, then sent the razor back to the owner... Amazingly it was a near 100% success rate for shaving edges...
But we choose to talk/discuss/argue the finishers, because that is what is cool...
I mean really where is the fun in discussing 1k stones they are just not all that sexy...

The real difference in honing is the grunt work, this is where consistency rules, this is where the "Discussions" occur about honing systems...

I think is what gets me going the most, when somebody asks for help, very, very, few will take the time explaining the under 8k process but every "Expert" out there will explain the wonders of their favorite finishing stone...

Lazarus/Mitch can really appreciate what I mean here, because he was at the Denver meet and watched me switch between finishing hones on almost every razor I did, that is the personal part of honing, and what the most typing is about... It is also very, very, easy for us to do, because the razor is at a shave ready condition before it gets too "Whatever" finisher I/You want to chose.... Those guys watched every single razor no matter the starting point, always get to shaving sharp, then I would say "What Finisher"???

I my eyes, whenever somebody claims any stone to be superior to another as a finisher, all I see is inexperience... as you already stated that is personal opinion only..
Have you ever noticed that most people with a ton of honing under their belt will say something more in the words of "I get more consistent results from X hone" not "I like this hone because it is the best"

But, when I hear that one "Sharpening" system is better, then my ears perk up, because I might learn something new...
I remember when the Unicot and Dulicot methods started, I was really paying attention at that point, because it was potentially another new "sharpening" system that I could use..
But no, it was not as consistent as what I already used for the grunt work, so I automatically dismissed it as yet another arrow in my quiver, same as the Pyramid, same as some older bevel setting techniques I used, before Lynn's 20 circles... These are not "bad" systems they are just not as consistent... I had honed a few thousand razors before the 20 circles technique, but quickly realized that it was a more consistent bevel setting method, so I adopted it into my routine...
I even remember when progressive honing was the "new fangled system" and the old pyramid devotees hated it...
These other "arrows" can be kept in your quiver of honing knowledge and pulled out as needed...Heck, I still use the Pyramid on occasion, and it still has it's place in honing...

So in conclusion yes when somebody asks what is the "Best", I automatically give them, what I have found after much honing/testing, to be the most "Consistent" sharpening system that I have found to that date, to hopefully get them on the road to shaving success... Then after they learn to hone a razor to shaving sharp, they can decide how to "finish" it themselves...
So yes I tell them without a doubt that Synthetics work better, and that if they want to start, and save money (your qualifier not mine), to buy a Norton starter kit for $120 and build from there, because in my experience, to this date, that is the most "Consistent" method of attaining a shave ready razor from a dull start, and therefore the most likely for a Newb to succeed... and start having fun....

My analogy:

"Squeeze the trigger, don't jerk it"...Now we all have heard that, but it doesn't mean that you won't get some hits by jerking the trigger, it just means that over the next 1000 shots you will hit more by squeezing it...

I didn't miss that point at all, Glen. In fact, I kinda made it too in referencing professional honers. What I'm saying is that it's not as critical for the average person as it is for you or others. Besides that, Shaptons or any of the most "consistent" stones in the world won't work for someone with a a stroke that's not capable. My main point concerning that is that the normal person doesn't need a lot of the stuff that people recommend to them... Shaptons from 1k up to 30' isn't going to be much easier/better than the Norton set and chromox, but the price is significantly steeper... The squeeze the trigger bit is excellent, but it deals more with the approach, not the gear... Competitive shooters will benefit a lot more from expensive specialized gear than we will, but we all need to work on squeezing the trigger instead of jerking it

Originally Posted by richmondesi

I didn't miss that point at all, Glen. In fact, I kinda made it too in referencing professional honers. What I'm saying is that it's not as critical for the average person as it is for you or others. Besides that, Shaptons or any of the most "consistent" stones in the world won't work for someone with a a stroke that's not capable. My main point concerning that is that the normal person doesn't need a lot of the stuff that people recommend to them... Shaptons from 1k up to 30' isn't going to be much easier/better than the Norton set and chromox, but the price is significantly steeper... The squeeze the trigger bit is excellent, but it deals more with the approach, not the gear... Competitive shooters will benefit a lot more from expensive specialized gear than we will, but we all need to work on squeezing the trigger instead of jerking it

I knew that we agreed in there someplace... sooner or later the steel has to hit the stone if ya wanna learn to hone...

Guys come at this thing for different reasons. Some guys just want to have a razor or two and shave and keep it sharp, some want to collect and restore, some want to start a business out of this,some get into it from a collecting standpoint and have hardware which might look like overkill to many but the acquisition is the thrill and of course some are part one and part the other and everywhere in-between.

I don't think there is any ultimate truth out there. We all have to find our own way and we adapt what folks recommend and combine this with our own experiences and experiments to get what works best for us.

Ultimately if you are both enjoying your shaves and using all the shaving gear and your razors are doing you justice then you are ahead of the game.

I realize this stuff can become an obsession but at some point you need to step back and kind of reevaluate the situation. If your able to sure you can just buy, buy, buy every time the latest and greatest anything comes along be it razor or hone or brush or strop but probably for most of us we have a buget to consider.

I sometimes have to wonder when I see posts from guys who just started with straights a month ago and they already have 100 razors and 10 brushes and so on. Getting yourself overwhelmed by this ain't good.

Just take it slow and learn and read and listen and periodically reevaluate and practice and experiment and very slowly advance and put the credit card away.

That's Thebigspendurs perscription for today.

this thread must have wore out my Thanks button, it won't work any more!
Great read from everyone so far. Ramble on.

I may be missing the point of the original post and definitely those following here, but it is all really about preference. If a guy is concerned purely about the money, then so long as he starts out with a shave ready razor, he can maintain his razor for a very long time with 10 strokes of CrOx on the back side of either his leather or webbed/linen side of the strop. When that quits working, someone can pick up a Chinese 12K, decent barber hone or a better finishing hone and do 10-15 strokes on the finisher, 10 on the CrOx and then the regular strop and push the maintenance period out even further. Only question here is whether 10, 30 or 50 or more will be the magic number on the Chinese and you may need more strokes on some of the other natural finishers as well.

The key to me as Glen pointed out is consistency. If I know something will work 9 or more times out of 10, then that method and those tools become my first recommendation whether you hone 1 or 1,000 razors. It's pretty straight forward. Certainly there are other tools and methods that can get a job done and that is each individuals call.

I do more stropping in a month than most people do in a year. I get to test almost every strop out there and compare against great old vintage strops for results. Sure I can get by with an old belt, but are the results as good and wouldn't I want something that will last and perform forever if possible (HAD excluded). We have people on band wagons for everything around here from strops to razors to soaps to hones and brushes and you name it. There are products out there for every persons taste and budget.

You don't need a full set of Shaptons or Naniwa's, but I do recommend 1K, 4K or 5K, 8K and 12K or 16K. Pasting will depend on how well you develop your skills and what you want a blade to feel like when shaving. I also recommend Norton 1K, 4K and 8K. As I've said a ton of times, all I used for a couple of years was the Norton 4K and 8K and it worked well until I succumbed to the search for the Holy Edge.

To me it is easier to give people some type of parameter in terms of the number of strokes on a stone or media that will give them quick success as they improve their touch and feel. So call it counting numbers. I can think of every excuse from I'm just a natural guy to I don't need no stinkin' counting and it really doesn't matter if it works for you.

Many people use just sandpaper on a flat plate and others use films and others use different grit sprays on rocks and others are experimenting with old tool stones and new rock finds and the journey continues.

We have tons of people who come in an adopt a DIY approach to everything here, whether this is just their nature, whether for their own satisfaction or whether seeing $$ in their eyes. Something is always cheaper and something is always more expensive. Who is to say what anyone has to and doesn't have to do to enjoy straight razor shaving or any of the associated things that go along with it? Who is a normal person? What does a normal person need? I will never be the judge of that.

Personally, I think getting some to where they can shave comfortably and enjoy it is the main task. Everything else follows.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Mitch can really appreciate what I mean here, because he was at the Denver meet and watched me switch between finishing hones on almost every razor I did, that is the personal part of honing, and what the most typing is about... It is also very, very, easy for us to do, because the razor is at a shave ready condition before it gets too "Whatever" finisher I/You want to chose.... Those guys watched every single razor no matter the starting point, always get to shaving sharp, then I would say "What Finisher"???

Yep. Glen it made clear that the razor was indeed shave sharp already and this last little bit was a matter of personal preference. No doctrine, no dogma just what is your preference.

Great thoughts, I probably started repeating advice a bit early... but at least it was advice from people like Glen, Max, and Lynn's tips for beginners. Now I feel like I have fought enough of my own battles to share my perspective and experiment with my own ideas.

One thing I'd like to add here is that even though we all have our methods and areas of knowledge, a great thing about having such a large group of skilled individuals at our disposal here at SRP is that we are bound to learn new things if we keep our eyes open.

When I can get past my own ego, I to ask questions about things that I think I have a decent background in. During my first few weeks here, I remember asking Glen about his thoughts on finishing walnut... I've been working with walnut for years, but I figured that he might have additional info that I could learn from. I've since learned many things that I wouldn't have if I'd kept quiet.

One of the least impressive displays I've seen happened when I saw one very experienced individual (nobody that is still a member here by the way) automatically dismiss another experienced restorer's arguments just because he had "been doing this for 20 years." At that point, I decided that I would look for my info elsewhere because I never want to get to the point where I know it all... know-it-alls by definition can't learn new things, and I'm not interested in that.

Look at Glen and Lynn, they don't stop trying new honing techniques, or trying new things out, and they have more hands on experience than many will ever have.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

The real difference in honing is the grunt work, this is where consistency rules, this is where the "Discussions" occur about honing systems...

few will take the time explaining the under 8k process but every "Expert" out there will explain the wonders of their favorite finishing stone...

Thanks, this really gives me some good perspective Glen... I've really been trying to put in some work on getting the early sharpening stages down. It's good to have the reminders every now and then.