Thread: Current opinions on Zulu Grey and Suehiro 20k? Shapton 30k?

Glen is right, BUT the suehiro can do a great job as long as the edge leading up to it is worthy. I use chosera thru 10k, then 15k and 20 suehiro. I just ordered a suehiro 10k, thats how much I like them. And of course you guys left out a Jnat. Takes the cake IMO if you dont mind being frustrated while you learning.

Glen,

As always you are on point...we all know that if you don't have a proper honing foundation...a finishing stone isn't going to help honing abilities a bit.

You guys are killing me...I just spent 28,500 yen. REAL good friends around here, ya bunch of enablers.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

You guys are killing me...I just spent 28,500 yen. REAL good friends around here, ya bunch of enablers.

Let's face it. You were just doing what had to be done.

What's cool about this place is the friendships you develop. Guys sending stuff around to one another just because...saying "try this". ��

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Not sure if the underlying thread here so far is really obvious

JimmyHAD - "Used on an already shave ready razor it enhances the edge/feel perceptibly."

Ace - "and be good to go after the 12K Naniwa"

Shooter - "Very few razors can handle that stone & fewer people even will know what I am talking about with that statement"

Geezer - "As always, steel, hone, water, and hand make the complete honing process"

Double0 - "The Suehiro benefit most from a prefinisher like a Naniwa 12k or Shapton glass 16K. The Zulu does benefit also, but it can go from the 8k to the Zulu with very good success also"

Zib - "I normally go from my Shapton 16k to the Suehiro 20k. It does benefit from a pre finisher"

Note that most everyone is explaining how they get to the stage before the finish,

I agree, and furthermore I wouldn't call most of the stones "pre-finishers" either. As far as I am concerned the 10 and 12k naniwa ss and shapton 16k gs are finishers. If used to shorten a gap for a higher grit stone then sure, they are being used as prefinishers or intermediate steps, bu lets not lose sight that they are finishers in their own right.

I have always believed in doubling up on the next hone in the progression as far as is practical, for instance anything over 10k would be overkill for the 20k, and only of use to speed up the last stages of honing, even though with synthetics this is by no means slow in the first place.

Usually when we follow a finisher with another hone all we are doing is altering the previous stones characteristics, like following up with a pasted paddle.

As has been said, if the edge is not spot on before the 20k it will hardly be so after it. A good point that shouldn't really need to be re-iterated: as far as I can see practitioners and enablers of the art like Lyn and Glen have made this absolutely clear since the early days of the forum.

So, what are my Zulu and SG20 edges like? The Zulu I found to be an interesting hone rather than a stand-out hone. It was also hard to fit it into a progression. I tried a couple of examples over a fairly long time, putting all sorts and ages of razors on it. The type and age of steel (other than extremely hard steel) didn't seem to matter: it worked at the same slow, tedious rate on all of them, giving a perfectly acceptable edge that gave a fine, smooth shave. If I hadn't experienced a lot of other hones before I came across the Zulu I would probably not have looked any further. One example was a little troublesome inasmuch as tbe hone had what I can only call a slight inclusion that made honing feel a little gritty and not nice. Lapping would solve the problem, but it would appear again, usually during the last few honing strokes. Hooray for wetsaws with thin diamond blades - that solved the problem! The other example has the same affliction, but to amuch lesser extent. If tbe Zulu was much faster the slight sporadicgritty feeling wouldn't have bothered me, but the grittiness combined with the slowness along with the length of time taken to lap it as well as a few other trifling issues has put me off it. Besides, I can get a better edge with many of the same qualities in less time with a decent thuringian.

The SG20 has been used for quite a long period now, again with razors of all types and age. It does seem to benefit some steel formulations more than others. I think this is primarily due to the degree of edge attenuation it can achieve - older lower temper steel varieties for instance cannot maintain the bevel left by the SG20. A high power loupe is essential for me to assess the edge. Finishing an old Sheffield on it leaves what looks like a perfect bevel. Examination of the edge after stropping shows a jagged edge due to the inherent lower temper of tbe steel - it just microchips. Dropping down to a 12k synthetic (or better still a decent coticule) gives a less attenuated edge that the razor can maintain. You would expect a major drop in shave performance, but this is not the case - the old Sheffield finished on its lower grit hone shaves perfectly well, good enough to compare to a lot of more recent razors finished on the SG20.

More modern razors with a higher tempered steel are finished admirably by the SG20 in very short time. The edge would be scary sharp, but the hone manages to introduce a taming element that gives shaving a rather smooth feel.

It does display a strange phenomenon with some steels, but I have not tested enough to narrow it down yet. Similar to the look of the bevel on old Sheffields after honing and stropping but finer and less pronounced, it gives you the idea that you have overhoned, which might well be the case sometimes. However a close look under the loupe shows a faint double line at extreme bevel tip that appears to be a microfin. I prefer to call it a false bevel, and after some experimentation found that giving, say, 20 laps on the hone, then slurrying the hone and giving the blade a few half laps on each side, washing off the slurry and giving another 5 to 10 laps gets rid of the problem (after having gone back to the previous hone first, that is).

If the problem persists then dropping back to a shapton 15k or 16k glass stone is usually all that is necessary. A very thin slurry on the 16k gs removes any harshness and approximates the SG20 quite well. In fact if shapton addressed the tendency of the 16k gs to display differential movement and made it as thick as the SG20 for a reasonable price, it would be my finisher of choice.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by shooter74743

You guys are killing me...I just spent 28,500 yen.

You got a good exchange rate, or a price drop. Last year they were $30,860 yen, $301.60 w/shipping. I think you'll really like it.

Howard

[QUOTE=OCDshaver;1293827The small Jnats that I have can be difficult to use with blades that have a smile or that require rolling x strokes.[/QUOTE]
Could you expand on that please?

jgjgjg,
If you are new to honing, I truly recommend starting out with touching up your razors first. With that being said, I also only recommend a new honer to learn off synthetics first as they are all relatively the same no matter if I come to your house and use your stones or you come to my house and use my stones. Natural stones have a personality just like we do and learning a stones personality isn't something a new honer needs to worry about. A new honer needs to learn how to feel what is going on first, this is the honing foundation we talk about. Naniwa, Norton, and Shapton are the most used hones here. You will get a lot of opinions of which is a preference, but they are all very nice stones and just preference from there. So if you are looking for a quality finisher, my first recommendation would be a Naniwa 12K or Shapton GS 16K. Again, I can't speak for the 20K you mentioned...yet...dang you!

[QUOTE=shooter74743;1294406]jgjgjg,
If you are new to honing, I truly recommend starting out with touching up your razors first. [QUOTE]

That's great advice.

I am relatively new to 1) honing razors and 2) jnats&coticules. I have deep experience honing a dizzying array of edge tools ranging from lathe cutters for inconel to machete's, to woodworking, rubber slicing, and carving tools on both synthetics (esp. Shapton) and natural 'oilstones' of all kinds. About the only thing I haven't experienced are concave blades, and I avoid "bear claw" shaped objects intentionally.

I will observe that razors are farther out on the "niche" and "nitpickiness" scales than any other edge tool I've dealth with. Really, I think the only thing left for me are surgical scalpels, and as far I know those are all disposable now as a matter of industry mandate. I also suspect that any edge suitable for what we do in shaving is probably correct for removing an appendix.