Thread: Current opinions on Zulu Grey and Suehiro 20k? Shapton 30k?

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Used on an already shave ready razor it enhances the edge/feel perceptibly.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I agree, and furthermore I wouldn't call most of the stones "pre-finishers" either. As far as I am concerned the 10 and 12k naniwa ss and shapton 16k gs are finishers. If used to shorten a gap for a higher grit stone then sure, they are being used as prefinishers or intermediate steps, bu lets not lose sight that they are finishers in their own right.
Regards,
Neil

There is the essence of the whole thing,,,

I have thought to myself many times reading threads here, geez there is only so much steel there to finish (re-read what Neil posted about having to back the edges down he explains it well)

But it really comes down to the term "Shave Ready" and where your honing is at regarding that term..

Going way back, the advice has always been "Until you can get a smooth comfortable shave consistently at the "8k level", buying a finisher will be a waste of money" personally I still believe that... Actually the trend toward people trying to buy their way to an edge, was why I changed my sig line to ""No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly"

Neil and Shooter both have also touched on a subject little discussed here too, about matching the Hone to the Steel, some do not believe that even exists, others of us are positive it does... That is something you have to work out with your razors and your faces..

Ahhhh the wonderful world of finishers, where we all disagree and spend tons of money

Just to be honest I clicked the like on gssixgun and Neil Miller posts but I only understood about half of what they were saying....I clicked like because I like the fact that I have a lot to learn and for me honing has been the most fun part of my foray into the straight razor universe. So having said that, I have used a Zulu and a small Escher. This is probably a shallow thing on my part, but so far on 3 naturals I have tried and my Chosera's, nothing gives me the satisfying tactile feeling of the steel on the Escher and I cannot justify spending on the Suehiro (But I will if my deal on a larger Escher falls through). I actually had paid for a Suehiro then ran a car off the road at 65 MPH and my discretionary income fund got depleted in about 7 seconds.

Originally Posted by jgjgjg

Could you expand on that please?

Both stones are small and best used in hand. One of them is short and narrow. I have a hard time getting a large blade (my W&B FBU) on it with enough room to comfortably roll it across the stone. I also find rolling strokes more comfortable when there is a little more length to the hone. I feel I can make gradual changes to the edge contact rather than having to quickly roll from heel to toe in a short distance. It can probably be done but its not very comfortable to do it.

So, the options for the thread are Suehiro 20k, Shapton 30k, and... the Zulu stone? Not Eschers, Charnleys, Jnats but the Zulu? Since when does that mediocre finisher fit in the hall of the greatest finishers? To put it as subtly as possible, and answer your question in the same time, It's a stone with big variations from piece to piece, with the majority of stones being prefinishers. Try something more reliable like man made ones, the Suehiro for example, or for naturals, an Escher. For the same price you can get one of those too.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

So, the options for the thread are Suehiro 20k, Shapton 30k, and... the Zulu stone? Not Eschers, Charnleys, Jnats but the Zulu? Since when does that mediocre finisher fit in the hall of the greatest finishers? To put it as subtly as possible, and answer your question in the same time, It's a stone with big variations from piece to piece, with the majority of stones being prefinishers. Try something more reliable like man made ones, the Suehiro for example, or for naturals, an Escher. For the same price you can get one of those too.

I would disagree with you on "mediocre finisher". I have used the Zulu in many razors and some razor respond very well to it which can stand next to an Escher or Suehiro 20k. I would not call it the best finisher, but definitely a good one IMHO.

The problem with the Zulu, I think, is that it's a relatively new stone and we still experimenting with it to get consistency. My best and most consistent edges (without going to the Shapton glass 16k first) has been to start with a lapped stone on the 325 DMT or 400 Atoma, do some laps (~40-60), then dress the surface with something like a 1200 Atoma do some more laps before going to the other side (lapped on 1200 Atoma then dry sanded with a 1500 paper) an do more laps on water only or smith honing solution. Guarantee that in some razors it will stand to an Escher edge!

Better and most consistent, get a nice edge out of the 16k Shapton glass then to the polished side of the Zulu, with water or smith honing solution.

Also some razors respond well with a very very light slury on the 1200 Atoma dress side.

The Escher is faster and the distinctive buttery feel you don't get out of the Zulu, however to buy an 8x3 turi will cost me 3-5 times as much as the same size Zulu.

I don't want to come as pushing the Zulu, I'm just expressing my option on a stone that I believe has value for someone on a budget or want to deep his toe on a good natural first. Double O

Have one. Glad I bought it.

Originally Posted by Double0757

I would disagree with you on "mediocre finisher". I have used the Zulu in many razors and some razor respond very well to it which can stand next to an Escher or Suehiro 20k. I would not call it the best finisher, but definitely a good one IMHO.

The problem with the Zulu, I think, is that it's a relatively new stone and we still experimenting with it to get consistency. My best and most consistent edges (without going to the Shapton glass 16k first) has been to start with a lapped stone on the 325 DMT or 400 Atoma, do some laps (~40-60), then dress the surface with something like a 1200 Atoma do some more laps before going to the other side (lapped on 1200 Atoma then dry sanded with a 1500 paper) an do more laps on water only or smith honing solution. Guarantee that in some razors it will stand to an Escher edge!

Better and most consistent, get a nice edge out of the 16k Shapton glass then to the polished side of the Zulu, with water or smith honing solution.

Also some razors respond well with a very very light slury on the 1200 Atoma dress side.

The Escher is faster and the distinctive buttery feel you don't get out of the Zulu, however to buy an 8x3 turi will cost me 3-5 times as much as the same size Zulu.

I don't want to come as pushing the Zulu, I'm just expressing my option on a stone that I believe has value for someone on a budget or want to deep his toe on a good natural first. Double O

I knew we were going there... Very well, I have tried 4 of them, had plenty of time to test them, and all of them were a disappointment. Yes, they kind of feel better than a norton 8k, but between a Norton 8x3" and a Zulu 8x3" stand about 150$.
You can try a Chinese stone. Or a Welsh one. Good ones from both feel better than a Zulu and cost a fraction of money.
It's not about inconsistent results from the stone. I get consistent results from every stone I have including those. It's about the not keen edge at all I get for a 150$ worth of stone.
Until a few days ago I thought that all of them were awful, but I talked with a friend who had one of the "awesome" ones, and confirmed that there are very few great, and the rest of them, as he bought a second one, and it was like mine... You don't know what you bought until you try it.
Like... the C12k. Which is slow. Like the Zulu. And, gives an edge as good as an Escher. Like the Zulu.
But, hey, a 50$ stone can't possibly compare with a 200$ one, right? You get what you pay for.

The whole hype about the Zulu stone is because, if someone likes it, he'll boast about it in as many opportunities as he'll get. If someone doesn't like it on the other hand, he'll forget that he bought it, it really feels bad that he spend 100+$ on something that doesn't worth it. And maybe if the new guys are lucky, he'll mention it once.

If for no other reason, I have found that being able to put a very shaveable edge using only my Naniwa progression gives you a standard. It's one thing to send out a razor to get honed up to shave ready so you know what it's like, but then when you start messing with and bring it back down, you've lost your comparison. I know you can keep it aside and do a different razor, but there's something about comparing the edge during experimentation with the same exact blade.

The only reason my fairly recent dive into the naturals hasn't made my head explode is cause I know I can just go back to the naniwas, bring the edge back, and try again. Not having that ability would make it maddening cause once you've lost the edge, it's hard to make comparisons soley from memory going forward.

Originally Posted by RoyalCake

The only reason my fairly recent dive into the naturals hasn't made my head explode is cause I know I can just go back to the naniwas, bring the edge back, and try again. Not having that ability would make it maddening cause once you've lost the edge, it's hard to make comparisons soley from memory going forward.

I feel the same! Double O

Originally Posted by Vasilis

Until a few days ago I thought that all of them were awful, but I talked with a friend who had one of the "awesome" ones, and confirmed that there are very few great, and the rest of them, as he bought a second one, and it was like mine... You don't know what you bought until you try it.

The whole hype about the Zulu stone is because, if someone likes it, he'll boast about it in as many opportunities as he'll get. If someone doesn't like it on the other hand, he'll forget that he bought it, it really feels bad that he spend 100+$ on something that doesn't worth it. And maybe if the new guys are lucky, he'll mention it once.

I have a second coming and would be able to confirm it first hand. I didn't know they where as inconsistent like the Chinesse 12k. Thanks for the info, first time I hear about it! Double O