Thread: Moughton Whetstone.

Neil, earlier this morning I did a google search for Moughton Whetstone and came up with this very informative review, written by you on you website, Vintage Straight Razor Sales & Restorations, Hand Made Strops, UK Razor Honing and Vintage Hone Stones ;

Moughton Whetstone Hone Stone

This is a genuine Moughton Whetstone from the Yorkshire Dales - a rarely seen razor hone stone. These red and green rocks are from the Ordovician age and the peculiar and very attractive rings are an example of the Liesgang effect, although they are less distinct in this example than others I have seen. The hones come from a very localised area, not found elsewhere, and were once in demand in Sheffield for use in the sharpening of razors, although these days examples are seldom seen. A 1985 field study by W. R. Mitchell mentions the stones use as a whetstone and cites two other sources from the 1700s and 1800s. Other sources specifically cite the fact that the Sheffield razor trade made use of theses hones, but I have not been able to track down a definitive text.

The hone measures 258mm by 65mm wide by 10mm thick - a very substantial size! In fact, it is the largest of it's type I have come across. It has been lapped flat to 600 grit and has had the edges lightly rounded. Although these hones are very liable to split along laminar lines this one is quite solid. The hone is shown wet or drying in all the pictures - it is a much lighter, greener colour when dry.

There appear to be very many minute specks of glittery material in the matrix of the stone, and these probably contribute to the hones cutting ability. As it is used the surface takes on a hard, glassy, reflective look when dry. I have not used the stone much - some sources cite it as a 'fine finisher' which in my opinion would rate at least as high as 10,000 grit, but I think that this hone falls below that - somewhere around 7,000 to 9,000 grit. The results seem very dependent on the shardness of the steel used to make the razor being honed - softer, older Sheffield blades seem to come up better than more modern harder steels. One thing I have noticed with this stone is that the slurry - in some cases - produces a superior edge. Without slurry the scratch lines on the bevel examined under a powerful loupe are very pronounced - with slurry they almost disappear and the edge takes on a kind of sandblasted appearance, although to the naked eye it looks quite shiny.

The hone is quite hard, but nowhere as hard as a Charnley Forest or similar novaculite-type hone stone. Being a mudstone, it is more on a par with a thuringian as far as hardness goes, and gives off copious amounts of pinkish-tinged slurry when it is lapped.


The bottom of the hone is not lapped, but is tolerably flat.

Packaged weight will be around 700 gms.

Somewhere in past discussions on the stone, as you noted above, that Moughtons were used by 'the Sheffield razor trade.' At the time I wanted one because it seemed to me appropriate to hone a vintage W&B, or Greaves, on a stone that the contemporaries of those razors would have used. Now I have come to the conclusion that I may as well make do with my Choseras, and the Suehiro 20k.

Since then Jimmy I have tried to track down these hones in any literature from the 1700s and 1800s without success. It seems, like so many things on the net, that this particular piece of lore was cited by someone and everybody since then has cited that someone's citation!

Even the W. R. Michell reference proves to be anecdotal. His paper (one of the many he wrote) appeared in 1985 and he himself was born in the 1920s, so he has no first hand experience of 1700s or 1800s Sheffield, nor could any of the people he talked to.

I have been able to find references to an unknown yellow stone from near Snowdonia being used to hone razors by Sheffield cutlers, as well as Charnley Forest (Holzapfel), but the inference as far as CFs are concerned is that they were used because of their hardness to 'strike-off' the feather edge that remained on a razor after it came off the grinding wheel, hot for honing as we know it.

Another one of lore which can be referred to is the greenish hard stone found in the pavement and setts of London and much esteemed by Stoddard, a razor maker of Faraday's era who commanded a lot of respect. However, we cannot positively identify what this stone was.

Late 1800s catalogues like A. B. Salmen's give prices for Tam O'Shanters, Water of Ayr, Turkeystones, Yellow Lake Oilstone, Arkansas, Yellow Coticules, etc so these would have been used, though once again there is no definitive text that shows Sheffield razor makers using them.

What is indisputable is that Yorkshire Bilston grindstones were used as wheels to give a coarse finish (as were the natural sandstones that abound in the region) while the Blue Bilston Grindstone was a much harder and finer grit stone, though not of the same degree of fineness as a 'finisher' or polishing stone, at least in the wheel-mounted variety.

BUT in Staffordshire there were several layers of whetstone bilston hones, some quoted to be among the best in the world in an 1834 directory - from one of these layers came a hone that was well capable of grinding razors to a fine edge.

Regards
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Since then Jimmy I have tried to track down these hones in any literature from the 1700s and 1800s without success. It seems, like so many things on the net, that this particular piece of lore was cited by someone and everybody since then has cited that someone's citation!

Even the W. R. Michell reference proves to be anecdotal. His paper (one of the many he wrote) appeared in 1985 and he himself was born in the 1920s, so he has no first hand experience of 1700s or 1800s Sheffield, nor could any of the people he talked to.

I have been able to find references to an unknown yellow stone from near Snowdonia being used to hone razors by Sheffield cutlers, as well as Charnley Forest (Holzapfel), but the inference as far as CFs are concerned is that they were used because of their hardness to 'strike-off' the feather edge that remained on a razor after it came off the grinding wheel, hot for honing as we know it.

Another one of lore which can be referred to is the greenish hard stone found in the pavement and setts of London and much esteemed by Stoddard, a razor maker of Faraday's era who commanded a lot of respect. However, we cannot positively identify what this stone was.

Late 1800s catalogues like A. B. Salmen's give prices for Tam O'Shanters, Water of Ayr, Turkeystones, Yellow Lake Oilstone, Arkansas, Yellow Coticules, etc so these would have been used, though once again there is no definitive text that shows Sheffield razor makers using them.

What is indisputable is that Yorkshire Bilston grindstones were used as wheels to give a coarse finish (as were the natural sandstones that abound in the region) while the Blue Bilston Grindstone was a much harder and finer grit stone, though not of the same degree of fineness as a 'finisher' or polishing stone, at least in the wheel-mounted variety.

BUT in Staffordshire there were several layers of whetstone bilston hones, some quoted to be among the best in the world in an 1834 directory - from one of these layers came a hone that was well capable of grinding razors to a fine edge.

Regards
Neil

1. I only found a document from 1890, The Geology of the Country around Ingleborough with Parts of Wensleydale and Wharfedale by J.R. Dakyns, R.H. Tiddeman, W. Gunns & A. Strahan....on the pages 12-13 there is a short quote on the "Crummack Area" and some sentences about the Moughton Whetstone....

The autors refer here to a Document from 1852, Quarterly Journal of Geological Society, Vol. VIII, P52...

2. Another Text ist from 1892, Harry Speight, The Craven and North-West Yorkshire Highlands, page 135/136...its says, also without a reference or source to the text.

"Under Moughton there is a bed of greenish-grey whet-slate, very fine and beautifully variegated with irregular coloured rings, like those sometimes seeu in
flint pebbles. This slate is much prized as a grind-stone for sharpening razors"

For shure there is no reference or a "definitive text that shows Sheffield razor makers using them"...

Well I've arranged to go up now.

My mum has booked us into my godparents at 11am for tea and a chat on tuesday, Then were off for a wander round Crummack dale.

I'm also going to have a word with my godfather. He's getting on a bit in age now, but for my whole life (33 years) he's been a river warden on part of the Ure river near Middleham. Middleham is on the other side of Penygehnt a large hill in the region, And he may know of other locations in that region that produce similar stone.

This is Penyghent.


More so come on the location I'll be visiting before I head up to the Moughton site.


From What I've gathered so far.

I need to look for stone with more red than green. Preferably with a full red surface split.

I need to watch out for cracks in the material. I know what the weather is like in this region, and the frost damage is something that I need to watch out for. If possible I'll try and get stone that has been buried.

I need to take a camera.



My kit bag will be.

large rucksack, with a double layer of camping foam for back protection.

Bottle of water.

150 grit diamond plate.

Small crowbar/podger.

Spoon.... Never go anywhere without that spoon to test the stone on before you bring it home!

Any chance that your yellow hone from Snowdonia supposed to be quarried on Lleyn peninsula?
I thing next time I am visiting inlaws in Woodham I will give Neil ring and organise some consultation.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Since then Jimmy I have tried to track down these hones in any literature from the 1700s and 1800s without success. It seems, like so many things on the net, that this particular piece of lore was cited by someone and everybody since then has cited that someone's citation!

Even the W. R. Michell reference proves to be anecdotal. His paper (one of the many he wrote) appeared in 1985 and he himself was born in the 1920s, so he has no first hand experience of 1700s or 1800s Sheffield, nor could any of the people he talked to.

I have been able to find references to an unknown yellow stone from near Snowdonia being used to hone razors by Sheffield cutlers, as well as Charnley Forest (Holzapfel), but the inference as far as CFs are concerned is that they were used because of their hardness to 'strike-off' the feather edge that remained on a razor after it came off the grinding wheel, hot for honing as we know it.

Another one of lore which can be referred to is the greenish hard stone found in the pavement and setts of London and much esteemed by Stoddard, a razor maker of Faraday's era who commanded a lot of respect. However, we cannot positively identify what this stone was.

Late 1800s catalogues like A. B. Salmen's give prices for Tam O'Shanters, Water of Ayr, Turkeystones, Yellow Lake Oilstone, Arkansas, Yellow Coticules, etc so these would have been used, though once again there is no definitive text that shows Sheffield razor makers using them.

What is indisputable is that Yorkshire Bilston grindstones were used as wheels to give a coarse finish (as were the natural sandstones that abound in the region) while the Blue Bilston Grindstone was a much harder and finer grit stone, though not of the same degree of fineness as a 'finisher' or polishing stone, at least in the wheel-mounted variety.

BUT in Staffordshire there were several layers of whetstone bilston hones, some quoted to be among the best in the world in an 1834 directory - from one of these layers came a hone that was well capable of grinding razors to a fine edge.

Regards
Neil