Thread: Salm Rock/Old Rock Coti's vs Other vintage Coticules

I like their yellow color.

James.

There are some coticules that are usable for one stone honing without spending hours upon hours, and some that aren't.

There are some coticules that give a keen and comfortable shave ATG, and some that don't. Some that do provide a comfy shave are dead simple to use, and some aren't - those sometimes require a lot of experimentation to figure out what works best with them.

I would think that every coticule can provide a shaving edge. Whether that edge is comfortable enough to shave with ATG is another story. I can shave WTG with an edge that I would consider almost impossibly harsh ATG.

The 3/100 statement is probably out of context. My suspicion is that what the person may have meant was that 3/100 coticules give a very keen shaving edge, cut reasonably quickly and still give a super smooth and comfortable shave to include ATG.

These kinds of stones are the ones that give me a case of the idiot grins - that is to say, after I've seen some combination of just how fast the stone cuts, and how keen an edge it creates, and how amazingly comfortable it is to shave ATG with, I have one of those smiles that just won't quit and a sense of awe and amazement that nature could have produced such an item (if it's a natural stone).

Currently I have about 7 of them. 2 are coticules, 1 is a slate I found "in the wild" that I call Kuro, 1 is a yellow-green Escher, 1 is a Nakayama Maruka Kiita, 1 is a translucent black Arkansas, and finally a synth, my SG20k.

Originally Posted by eKretz

These kinds of stones are the ones that give me a case of the idiot grins - I have one of those smiles that just won't quit and a sense of awe and amazement that nature could have produced such an item (if it's a natural stone).

SG20k.

Agreed, agreed!

The "one stone hone" thing is ridiculous to begin with. Let's examine which stones can't maintain a razor that already has its bevel set and isn't dropped or dragged perpendicularly across a stone..

..(crickets)

None.

Let's examine the number of "one stone" hones that cut bevels like an agitated washita arkansas, a fine india or a synthetic 800-1000 waterstone.

Zero.

And the number of "one stone" hones that can set a bevel quickly and then turn around and polish an edge as well as a hard even japanese natural stone that allows you to literally wipe the razor across the surface any way you'd like and get a great edge.

Zero.

False dilemma.

No natural stone is too fine to maintain a razor - they all have reasonably large particles and can be made to release them one way or another.

As far as fiddling with a stone when a jnat that meets the criteria I mentioned above is $200 (or a third to half of that if you're willing to accept koppa), when only one in N coticules can come close to that for razor maintenance? No thanks.

I have a feeling that sham's comment about 3 out of 100 means 3 out of 100 worked like I'm describing a good jnat, and I think he's perfectly in bounds there. I've seen one coticule that you can wipe the razor across any way you want, get a bright polish, and an edge that's in the ball park of jnats. I sold it because i have jnats, but I won't be going on a search for another one because I'll have to buy 6 or 10 for more than the cost of a jnat each to find another one like it, and I may not.

I could fiddle an edge out of every coticule that I had, it was just an edge inferior to other stones that I have that have a much higher batting percentage with razors.

I would hate to be a beginner who only got a coticule and couldn't figure out why they weren't getting good edges.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I would hate to be a beginner who only got a coticule and couldn't figure out why they weren't getting good edges.

If I could start all over again, I wish I would have started with a coticule. Its versatility in my view is what makes it so appealing and I was so happy with the results that I sold all my naniwas and my expensive japanese natural finisher. So yeah, just one stone for honing works just fine for me. You could say that I may have lucked out with a good coticule, but I also bought a second one and its equally excellent. I think if you are buying from a vendor with expertise in coticules, then it is unlikely you will get a stone that is not suitable for straight razors.

The expensive japanese finishers are another thing that's a bugaboo for me. I can't see any difference in sharpness vs. any of the run of the mill very fine stones that any of the reputable dealers sell.

I think most people who would buy a coticule only as a beginner would find it unfavorable, that's just my opinion. There are others too complex for a beginner to get on with, though, too, like jaspers and agates, and especially if a beginner wants to venture into trying to shave off of a washita (which is doable, but the same technique I mentioned earlier has to be used - to condition the edge with a linen and never completely remove it).

I do think the natural combo coticules are the prettiest natural stones there are, though. I just wish they had particles a third the size of what they have.

I've had a deep rock and an old rock. The deep rock was soft and had a grainy feedback. I sold it a day later. I'm sure it was a good stone but just not what I like. The old rock was nice but I ended up not using it much so I sold it. I have a 6x1 1/4 genuine belgian razor hone that is way above average...wish it were bigger. The best vintage I have is a barbers pet coticule that was stamped extra extra choice. It's hard, decent speed and finishes great. The best coti I own and have ever tried is an ol preu mined la veinette. It's stupid hard, very fast and very fine, with glassy feedback. That's what I like in a coti.
As far as the 3/100...yeah I think his standards are just higher than most. It's hard for me to find a "keeper" because I want the stone to perform great, but also have the feel that I like under the blade. I've sold lots of stones that were great at honing razors, but regardless of performance if I don't enjoy using it, it goes.

Exceptional coticules are hard to come by. If you have one, hold on to it with both hands.

Originally Posted by Utopian

In my opinion, there are a lot of coticules that are not practical for one stone honing, and it would be "ridiculous" to claim otherwise.

+ 1

Originally Posted by DaveW

The "one stone hone" thing is ridiculous to begin with.

I've said that since the first time it was brought up here by a Belgian coticule advocate some years ago. I tried it, and it is doable with certain stones, but it is like walking up the stairs to get to the top of the Empire State Building instead of taking the elevator. With other stones it is not doable to a satisfactory result. Ergo ....... it is ridiculous. YMMV.

It's been a while since we've had a good coticule discussion, hasn't it? My reply is a bit on the long side (what can I say, it's been so long, I got carried away), so in case you don't like reading lots of words, well, this is going to suck.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Let's examine the number of "one stone" hones that cut bevels like an agitated washita arkansas, a fine india or a synthetic 800-1000 waterstone.
Zero.

Granted, establishing bevels on a coticule is not ideal. However, most razors already have some sort of bevel. If it's not in too bad shape (no large chips or messed up geometry otherwise) setting a bevel takes me about 5-10 minutes on slurry on a relatively fast coticule. If it takes longer than 10 minutes, I will usually use something a bit coarser.

Originally Posted by DaveW

And the number of "one stone" hones that can set a bevel quickly and then turn around and polish an edge as well as a hard even japanese natural stone that allows you to literally wipe the razor across the surface any way you'd like and get a great edge.
Zero.

So for the sake of argument you decided that a "hard even japanese natural stone" is the pinnacle of finishing stones and of shaving edges. That's all nice and dandy, but not necessarily true. Maybe for you it is.

I will ignore your relatively narrow parameter for honing a razor for a bit and say that, if there is nothing inherently wrong with the edge (e.g. excessive chipping) or the geometry of the razor itself, honing a razor to a comfortable shaving level (easily cuts stubble, no tendency to dig into the skin) takes me (and has took me for quite a while already) 15-30 minutes. If I apply what is known as the unicot method, it will take me 10-15 minutes on most days. This applies to any of the 6 coticules I have owned and a few more I have used over the last 4 years.

Also, I feel that finishing a razor is the easiest part of honing in general (given that your stroke technique is clean). For instance, finishing on a coticule literally takes 30-50 X-strokes on water. Most coticules do not increase sharpness much at this stage, but I think we can agree that's not the role of a finishing hone anyway.

And as we are throwing around sweeping statements, here is one from me: if all you do on a coticule is finishing on water and your edge is not up to snuff after that, you most likely did not hone well enough before finishing (provided the coticule in question does not have hard inclusions that damage edges).

Originally Posted by DaveW

As far as fiddling with a stone when a jnat that meets the criteria I mentioned above is $200 (or a third to half of that if you're willing to accept koppa), when only one in N coticules can come close to that for razor maintenance? No thanks.

So now that one stone does exist, while you just argued that it does not? Your argument is inconsistent, or at least unclear. Also, I was under the impression that, in order to get a shave ready edge off a hard Japanese natural hone (from beginning to end) you need at least three different nagura stones (botan, at least one of mejiro/tenyou/koma and a tomo nagura), which go for a fair amount of money in their own right. So that's not quite the same as a coticule with a coticule slurry stone.

Also, for illustration: of the 6 coticules I owned, none came even close to costing $200. And I cannot remember seeing too many japanese naturals sold by reputable and knowledgeable vendors for under $100 (although I remember some Shouboudani's for €75 or so - without nagura, of course), but then again I may not have been looking too hard, either. Please explain to me how a $200 Japanese natural from a knowledgeable vendor is a better deal than a €99 (20x4 cm, which is plenty large) coticule from a knowledgeable vendor.

Originally Posted by DaveW

The "one stone hone" thing is ridiculous to begin with [...] False dilemma.

I am glad it is so clear for you, but I find your argument unconvincing. You set very narrow parameters, based on results I must assume you have had with other natural hones and then conclude that because no one hone fits into all the exact parameters you have set "one stone honing" is ridiculous. I do this ridiculous "one stone hone" thing quite often, actually.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I would hate to be a beginner who only got a coticule and couldn't figure out why they weren't getting good edges.

Well hello, I was that beginner who only got a coticule and I could not quite figure out on my own why I had sub-par edges. So I invested a bit of time and effort (because I'm not in this whole straight shaving hobby to save time, money or effort, now am I?), read a bunch of stuff from people who had done the same (www.coticule.be) and voilà: good edges. Not all of them all the time, but most good enough to comnfortably shave with. In a bit over a month. Since then I have not tried out an X amount of different types of hones simply because I never needed to.

And only “one in N coticules” works? Just because people keep repeating this ad nauseum still does not make it true. Frankly, I find it a bit silly. The argumentation usually begins and ends with "many members on SRP who hone(d) a lot of razors have found this". To which I could reply “Well, I know a lot of people who honed a lot of razors who say that most coticules are suitable for honing razors”, which I will not because it is a bogus argument. Just because “many people” find or think something does not necessarily make it true. However, this apparent paradox must suggest that the truth lies at least somewhere in the middle, right? Or, just, you know, no.

Then there is the inconsistency argument: "Coticules are all veeeery different and unpredictable". Which is relative. Yes, there are differences between coticules, which is why in diluting a fixed amount of strokes to get to certain places in the honing process when diluting is difficult, if not impossible, to determine (except on a stone-by-stone basis, which goes against the idea of a more universal method of use). When using a coticule, I would rather suggest testing the edge or evaluating feedback to determine the state of the edge. Because of differences in speed coticules are slightly unpredictable from one to the next. Yet they all function according to the same principle, which makes their behaviour predictable to a certain extent.

Learning to effectively use one's first coticule can take a bit of time (even though the unicot method is not all that complicated and works quite well among the different coticules I have used and others have used); of course it does, it is a skill. However, once one learns to use this first coticule effectively, the learning curve for every subsequent coticule is thereby much reduced; one does not have to start from scratch with every coticule.

I find it strange and amusing that people who put in hours upon hours of trying to learn to shave with a straight/open/cut-throat razor are discouraged from learning to hone in a certain way because it takes time and effort. “But learning on synthetic hones minimizes that effort.” My reply to that: "So? Are you in a hurry?"

My suggestion for a great, close, old school shave with a wicked sharp and smooth edge every shave without putting in too much of an effort in acquiring skills: Get an old Gem 1912/G-Bar razor (or an EverReady equivalent), a 100-pack of ptfe-coated stainless GEM razor blades and have at it. I have found this is as close as you can get to a straight shave without a straight razor.

Or hone on synthetics, naturals or your marble threshold. There are a million ways to make this work, it’s just a matter of preference.

Sorry for the length, but I felt it all needed saying.

Two things:
* If you're going to use "one stone" to maintain a razor, every single finisher out there can do it. There's nothing special about cotis in that respect. Even the finest hardest jnat can maintain a razor
* One in N stones doesn't mean that the N-1 stones don't work, it means they don't work as well as other reputable finishers that cost the same (often less). One in N will work with the ease that a good finisher of another type can

There are probably few people on here who have tried more different stones than I have.

I stand by my statements. they are not as good unless you consider a razor that's a bit duller and with less ease to be "as good". To the point that I'll tell you that I have shaved off of washita stones and gotten quite good edges off of them after some fiddling, as long as there is a linen and strop involved.

That doesn't mean I'd suggest that washitas are a good stone for a beginner to finish with, or are as good. they will do the "one stone" thing as well as most cotis, but will require just a little bit more skill to finish with.

You can play with your cotis. I still have my deep rock, it was a gift. I've sold the only superb one I've ever seen, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because it's in the ballpark of the rest of my finishers.

I do feel bad for the people who spend $250 on a big coti and have to screw around trying to figure out why they're getting dull edges, trying to "feather pressure" and screw around with all kinds of dilutions. Slurry to clear on an asagi stone is a better-than-coticule edge every time, and for less money. That is, unless you figure a duller edge is superior.

I can guarantee that any coticule that drops the sharpness of a razor that I've finished on a japanese stone or thuringian is not doing so due to my lack of honing a razor properly. It would only take a scope picture of the edge before and after to see why the coticule is creating a duller edge.