Thread: Coti vs Escher

I got a lot of good info from here and on the net, but in the end it is what you like. Plus you have to compare cost to quality.

Now I don't dislike Escher any different than a coticule. I just think they are very similiar if not the same to me especially after a shave or two.
I even tried to buy an Escher last night. Someone got a good deal it came with a razor too for that price. I just think for the price Coticule wins for me. Unless someone has a cheap Escher for me.

Now maybe it is easier to get the edge with an Escher that I do not know. I would need one to figure that out. Plus I learned how to hone on a coticule so maybe I wouldn't be so good on an Escher.

Originally Posted by rideon66

Now maybe it is easier to get the edge with an Escher that I do not know.

IME, based on what I was taught by a Russian emigre honemiester from Missouri, you don't 'get' an edge on an Escher the way you do with a coticule, or whatever.

When you've got an edge, IOW, a shave ready edge, you finish on an Escher to improve it. Trying to 'get' the edge with an Escher would be a waste of good stone and would take a long time. IMHO.

An edge I put to an Escher is always shave ready before it touches it. Same for trans arks. Other hones you can come from a middle grit and get a laser edge. Pierre la lune is a good example.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I figure from all of this old literature that 100 years ago, barbers never used a hone to do anything other than limit the width of the bevel, and that the hone was never worked to the edge.

I really don't understand this. The hone would be used until the razor shaved well, and it wouldn't shave well till the hone "worked to the edge."

Originally Posted by hatzicho

Also the handling of the razor after the endfinishing on hones could be essential for the shave experience. Whereas for me personally stropping on Linen is a must for most coticule edges, it could sensible degrade a Thuri edge. Try the thuri edge only stropped with leather.

I just shaved with a thuri edge I didn't strop on Linen. And I must say that it was a little smoother especially against the grain. I guess I just never questioned it. Thanks a lot.

Any other tricks while we're at it?

Originally Posted by Utopian

I really don't understand this. The hone would be used until the razor shaved well, and it wouldn't shave well till the hone "worked to the edge."

I've seen numerous old accounts where even with a coticule, barbers suggested that one should be careful not to remove the edge.

There would be an initial period with any razor, where a subpar hone would create a coarse edge, at least coarse compared to what we're used to. The linen would even the edge out gradually, and then the maintenance hone would be used sparingly to keep the width of the bevel from increasing much, but without removing the conditioned edge the linen made.

I am 100% sure that is what "overhone" meant in old literature, and it's completely different than what we use the term overhone for. You see in old literature that the escher is described as a stone where overhoning is not possible (that's because it's fine enough that the shave with the stone created edge is excellent). The literature doesn't say the same for carborundum, aluminum oxide and sometimes coticules. The benefit to using a coticules to keep the bevel thin is that it can do so without leaving deep grooves, which means it can work closer to the edge without damaging it. But if you work all the way to the edge, it will not be as keen as a thuri edge, except for a very few coticules.

The art of maintaining the edge without removing it is lost, and I think that such an edge (because it's what I strive to keep) is superior to an edge right off of a stone or used with oxides. It is exceedingly sharp, but it has a smoothness that the linen creates that no stone can match for sharpness and no oxide can match for comfort. It's also a very durable edge, and one that has a very constant feeling in sharpness through the week until the linen is used again.

I don't believe it's ever necessary to remove the very edge again once the razor has been set up initially.

What's interesting is that the text that jimmy has suggests that many barbers prefer a faster hone than a thuringian, because of the ability of those hones (the synthetics, etc) to quickly touch up a razor. We know from experience that nobody is taking those maintenance stones and shaving directly off of them, most are not that fine, and even the ones on the fine side (like the swaty) are pretty brash under a scope.

Leaving the edge would allow a barber to adjust a razor that's starting to pull in about 30 seconds, vs. our routines of stones removing the edge that take minutes at least.

I've had several Eschers (and Droeschers and unlabeled thuris), and many, many cotis. They all provide a great edge.

I've never tried shaving off a hone without stropping on linen and leather first, so I cannot comment on that. In my hands, the coti edge lasted longer, but that's subjective as I never really kept tabs on them that closely.

Anyway, in my opinion, it comes down to preferences - some people will like them both equally, others will prefer one or the other. Doing a 'hone-off' with Escher vs. coti as the OP has done, will answer which is preferable for only the OP. Other people will have different experiences.

Originally Posted by mikael86

I just shaved with a thuri edge I didn't strop on Linen. And I must say that it was a little smoother especially against the grain. I guess I just never questioned it. Thanks a lot.

Any other tricks while we're at it?

I could be off base here, but if a linen and leather doesn't improve a thuri edge, then it might be worth looking for a different linen and a slicker leather.

Some of my early strops did not improve the edge off of a stone, but since switching to one hard horse butt strop, allowing it to glaze and staying with it - and going with a clean vintage linen, I haven't found a stone that the combination doesn't improve by a lot. I'm glad to be rid of the hassle of having a strop that had the potential to decrease sharpness from stones, because it makes for a guessing game of how much pressure you should use and how many strokes, and at the time I would hone an edge, do it up with green chromium and then strop very lightly to spare it, and shave for three days before stropping again because the first full stropping would reduce sharpness.

I should have been clearer I stropped on leather only. No linen. And yes it is absolutely subjektive which edge you like the best.

as you I have multiple of both. Well I never owned a labeled escher but I'm certain that the two I have at the moment are thuringian. And some days I like thuris and some days I like coticules. All a matter of preferences

Originally Posted by hatzicho

Also the handling of the razor after the endfinishing on hones could be essential for the shave experience. Whereas for me personally stropping on Linen is a must for most coticule edges, it could sensible degrade a Thuri edge. Try the thuri edge only stropped with leather.

I believe you are correct with the linen. I happen to be looking at a vintage thuri that was boxed and in the instructions it said never strop on linen afterward only on leather.