Thread: Coti vs Escher

Originally Posted by Badgister

Coticules like any natural stone will vary in hardness and grit. I find that the ideal coticule for one stone honing ( bevel setting to finishing) is one that is both soft (fast) and fine, my veinette for instance meets that criteria.

As an amateur musician, I can draw an analogy with woodwind instruments, the perfect instrument should allow for easy low register and high register playing. A thick bore will play the lower register very well at the expense of the high register and vice-versa. a proficient musicians will adjust his technique based on that.

A coticule that is too soft and not as fine will be great for bevel setting at the expense of finishing and vice-versa.

I have some coticules that are really hard and slow. They are great, but I use them as more as finishers.

In the end, you can get a great edge with all of them but will need to adjust your technique based on the stones properties, hence, learning the stone.

I like your analogy; some coticules are more finicky than others. In other words: it takes more practice to coax a great edge out of them.

However, I never noticed any distinct causality between soft and fast, and hard and slow. I judge hardness in coticules by how readily they release slurry (I'm very sceptical about the fingernail scratching test). One determining factor (definitely not the only one, though) for the functionality of coticules and Belgian Blue Whetstones is the density of the garnet distribution. To me it seems logical that this has a much higher level of impact on the functionality than the hardness of the binder of the coticule.

I have a relatively hard old coticule which is quite slow on slurry and water. I also have a recently mined Les Latneuses combination coticule on which the "hybrid" side is quite hard. Yet, it is not slow by any means; not very fast either (slower than the cream coloured side), but rather what I would call medium speed on slurry and relatively slow on water.

I also have a relatively soft coticule which is roughly as as fast overall as the Les Latneuses "hybrid". As far as I have been able to detect there is no clear correlation between hardness and speed concerning coticules.

Regarding the initial post: I also have trouble descerning between a great coticule edge and a great Thüringer edge. For good measure, add a great Blue Belgian edge to that.

Yeah I have a really nice combo stone where the coti side is very hard and smooth and the BBW side is similar. I have not shaved direclty off the BBW side yet though. I am really liking this stone. So last night I was playing with a very nice Greaves razor on the really hard coti. The razor was already shave ready I just wanted to try it on this stone. I did 100 laps water only with 2 pieces of tape. Stropped 60 on linen 80 on leather. It got scary sharp. I even cut myself for the first time in forever just touched the cheek in the wrong way. I now have a 2" line on my cheek. Never done that before. I also won a boxed thuri online last night too(finally found one at a price less than my coticules). So we will see if the thuri can improve the edge from this coti when I get it. I will only strop on leather after the Thuri.

Question to the Thuri people. Frist if it is already sharp do I make a slurry or just water as they self slurry a bit to finish an edge? Next what would be a good estimate of laps on the thuri or just judge as I go? Finally do you strop on leather the same amount or since you do not use linen do you double it? Oh and I guess I would use tape as was used in the sharpening of the razor before? I am sure over time I will play with all this I just want to get a good idea of what to try the first time.

Sounds like you have a killer coticule there. Congrats on the thuri. I always make a thin slurry on my thuris that i do a quick dilution on. I then finish on thin/trace slurry.

but you should try both to see what you prefer. It works both ways. If I skip the linen on my strop then I'll double the number of laps on my leather strop.

Funny thing on my lighter softer thuri I felt an improvement on skipping the linen but my darker harder one benefits from the linen leather strop.

Here are my thuris I had a third one but gave it away.

Originally Posted by RusenBG

It is not the coti vs thuri batle . The real deal is a coti and after thuri - and the best edge is achieved .
Very few coticules are capable of giving edge , near thuringian . I have 2 of them already but every thuri gives a dream edge .

You are lucky, Rusen - I must have gone through 50 - 100 vintage coticules that all gave a 'mushy' edge (I suspect others call this smooth) before I got one I really liked - a Les Latneuses hybrid, creamy yellow one side, veined grey/blue and yellow on the other and hard as glass. Cost an arm and a leg, though.

Luckily, I have the means to sell-on hones. I have a number of thuringians that are not labelled - all extremely good, and an Escher, which is on a par with most if not all of the unlabelled ones, perhaps a bit more refined but it is hard to tell.

Regards,
Neil

You are lucky, Rusen - I must have gone through 50 - 100 vintage coticules that all gave a 'mushy' edge (I suspect others call this smooth) before I got one I really liked - a Les Latneuses hybrid, creamy yellow one side, veined grey/blue and yellow on the other and hard as glass. Cost an arm and a leg, though.

Ha i very much like my 2 / of 10 / coticules , that are very hard and fine . They arent easy stones q they have plenty of caracter , every each of them.
I have indeed 3 good but the 3 rd is 10 x 2.5 sm and is not posible to achieve a good edge / or it is very hard /
I found a system that is dilucot to plain watter and after i put a lot of liquid soap on the coti and withowt presure finish and just at the end i turn and make only few strokes on the hard fine BBW .
Before the BBW the edje is more crisp and the Belgian blue calms it a bit . I dont know how , i know it works . More than 10 strokes on the BBW will degrade the edge .

Originally Posted by mikael86

Sounds like you have a killer coticule there. Congrats on the thuri. I always make a thin slurry on my thuris that i do a quick dilution on. I then finish on thin/trace slurry.

but you should try both to see what you prefer. It works both ways. If I skip the linen on my strop then I'll double the number of laps on my leather strop.

Funny thing on my lighter softer thuri I felt an improvement on skipping the linen but my darker harder one benefits from the linen leather strop.

Here are my thuris I had a third one but gave it away.

Your a good guy. I don't have any friends who would give me a thuri.

Originally Posted by RusenBG

Ha i very much like my 2 / of 10 / coticules , that are very hard and fine . They arent easy stones q they have plenty of caracter , every each of them.
I have indeed 3 good but the 3 rd is 10 x 2.5 sm and is not posible to achieve a good edge / or it is very hard /
I found a system that is dilucot to plain watter and after i put a lot of liquid soap on the coti and withowt presure finish and just at the end i turn and make only few strokes on the hard fine BBW .
Before the BBW the edje is more crisp and the Belgian blue calms it a bit . I dont know how , i know it works . More than 10 strokes on the BBW will degrade the edge .

Bart, formerly of SRP. then Coticule.be then Artisan Shaving advocated this method, ie finishing with a few strokes on the BBW after the coticule side.

However, he seems to have advocated that the method gave the edge a bit more snap/bite/briskness as opposed to making it smoother.

Just goes to show that everyone's experience is different.

Regards,
Neil.

A simpler Dilucot for some stones is to have a deep bowl of water near, and dip the blade in it every 40 laps or so. Works for most of my Coticules. The mind that learns to use that stone is the most important factor and next is the hand that guides the razor on it.
~Richard

I tend to just try different methods as I go play with it and have fun till I get the result I want. It seems every stone and blade is a bit different and responds to different things. I usually start with unicot and add some dilucot if it isn't getting where i want, but always finish unicot. I also tend to add a lot of extra final strokes on water only with the tape to really smooth out the edge. Some stones seems to make it smoother some a little crisper. Again it can also depend on the razor and the steel that was used. I am mostly talking about the old sheffield wedges here. My hollows seem to be a bit easier and following the usual unicot or dilucot seems to work a few extra strokes here and there.

All of my razors seem to be good right now so once I get the thuri I will just try finishing some of the edges more and see if I can tell any difference from the coti alone.
Does anyone do this finishing on a Thuri after a coti, and how many strokes on the Thuri would be good?

Originally Posted by rideon66

...snip...
All of my razors seem to be good right now so once I get the thuri I will just try finishing some of the edges more and see if I can tell any difference from the coti alone.
Does anyone do this finishing on a Thuri after a coti, and how many strokes on the Thuri would be good?

If the bevel was properly set and the edge polished to the nice shaving point, only a very few, like 10-20 laps would be required.
And, yes I do usually finish with a Thuringian.
~Richard