Thread: Nakayama Maruka

Originally Posted by Srdjan

I would be mad to pay more than $200 US for a stone.. be it german, belgian, or japanese, but thats just me. I owned 6 jnats, currently 3, most of which cost less than $90 and do an excellent job. Some level 5, some level 5+, some level 3 and 3+ (this is all subjective from my limited experience).

Here, you would be paying for the looks and the weight. The surface does seem flawless.. but that doesn't mean that an Ozuku, or Shobu Asagi for ~$250-$350 would be a worse choice. Perhaps for your first jnat, it would be worth looking at JNS Shoubudani 100. Costs about less than $100 with a slurry stone. Additionally, JNS has some great Nakayamas which cost half of that price.

Once upon a time (like, until two years ago ) I was thinking the same way, and had 50 different types of stones with the most expensive at 100 euro. Then, I started selling them. I sold many, and with the money I made selling them, bought few. Then I realized that, pretty much, you get what you pay for. Each and every one of those 50 stones didn't hold a candle in front of a good Jnat (some did, but they were rare pieces of rare stones). Or a white TOS I had and still miss, it was one of a kind. Or a quality Charnley, Thuri, WOA. There were a few nice in these 50, but the expensive ones are better than the cheaper ones. And now I have 5-6 stones that I love, regularly use and are expensive.
And another lesson, there is also the matter of the seller. If he has 50 Thuringians or coticules, common sense says, he'll sell his worst pieces first and his best last.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

Once upon a time (like, until two years ago ) I was thinking the same way, and had 50 different types of stones with the most expensive at 100 euro. Then, I started selling them. I sold many, and with the money I made selling them, bought few. Then I realized that, pretty much, you get what you pay for. Each and every one of those 50 stones didn't hold a candle in front of a good Jnat (some did, but they were rare pieces of rare stones). Or a white TOS I had and still miss, it was one of a kind. Or a quality Charnley, Thuri, WOA. There were a few nice in these 50, but the expensive ones are better than the cheaper ones. And now I have 5-6 stones that I love, regularly use and are expensive.
And another lesson, there is also the matter of the seller. If he has 50 Thuringians or coticules, common sense says, he'll sell his worst pieces first and his best last.

Agreed. Better stones cost more, but "better" usually doesn't mean better for a specific purpose since people buy these stones for tools, knives, and razors, and what's good for one is not necessarily the best for the others.

Kato-San stamped "Maruka" (circle ka, a circle around the first letter of his name) to designate a superior quality stone, but as he was a miner, he had no idea what purpose people would be using the stones for. It just meant it was a purer, more consistent, and regular stone.

I absolutely agree with Vasilis last statement, and it's why I buy stones from dealers and not other enthusiasts. I won't sell the best of my collection, but stone dealers will, it's their business and they can't keep them all or they wouldn't make money. Takeshi-San once told me that about 2% of his inventory was the quality of the old selected stones, and that's really what you're looking for -in razor grade - and they won't be cheap.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Vasilis

Once upon a time (like, until two years ago [emoji14] ) I was thinking the same way, and had 50 different types of stones with the most expensive at 100 euro. Then, I started selling them. I sold many, and with the money I made selling them, bought few. Then I realized that, pretty much, you get what you pay for. Each and every one of those 50 stones didn't hold a candle in front of a good Jnat (some did, but they were rare pieces of rare stones). Or a white TOS I had and still miss, it was one of a kind. Or a quality Charnley, Thuri, WOA. There were a few nice in these 50, but the expensive ones are better than the cheaper ones. And now I have 5-6 stones that I love, regularly use and are expensive.
And another lesson, there is also the matter of the seller. If he has 50 Thuringians or coticules, common sense says, he'll sell his worst pieces first and his best last.

I guess I've been lucky... and I had the time to explore and make the cheap stones do what I needed them to do. [emoji6] All the stones I've tried so far have provided exactly as advertised and more. Even the softer jnats, as long as their grain is fine, can deliver a shave-ready edge. The issue I find important is the speed at which a stone achieves the result. That's a strong and valid selling point, next to the grade of the stone. Personally, I don't really care for the looks that much and boy, do I hate the marketing game around some of these.

Anyway, in the $300-$500 price range, one can surely find an awesome stone to finish a razor. Why pay a thousand, or more? Is the edge really that different? I have no idea, one day I will meet you in person and you'll show me, OK? [emoji6] Then I'll start selling all the stones I have and MAYBE I'll put together enough money for a really special stone.

Still, until that day, if the razor shaves flawlessly, then the stone is good enough for me. I agree some stones are harder to finish on then the others, which is also a valid selling point. This especially plays an important role for the people who, unlike me, you I guess and a bunch of others, don't want/have the time, to explore and play with a bunch rock to figure out what it can and cannot do. That's where "you (hopefully) get what you paid for" comes into play once again. This time it's not so much about the rock itself, but the time, effort, sometimes the nerves, etc...

You're kind of right ...

Most people when they begin the JNat journey are under the impression that quality drives price. It does, but apparently not as much as size, regularity, and color.

I have $70-$90 stones that perform as well as anything as far as the edge goes. But they are for the most part, small, irregular, thin, and not a desirable color. If these stones were 205x75x25mm, a perfect rectangle, and a desirable kiita yellow, they'd be $2,000 and up. That's just how the pricing goes.

All of the Nakayama and most of the other mines are closed and what we're all buying is warehoused stock that's becoming increasingly picked over. So small, irregular, and ugly stones are atill somewhat common and reasonably priced even if the quality is top notch. Likewise, large, good and regular stones are increasingly rare and desirable.

It is fun to hone a razor on a large, beautiful and regular JNat that feels like honing on velvet or greased ice and puts a wonderful feeling edge on the razor. I'll pay for that, but you don't really have to.

One thing that's rarely mentioned is that the Japanese will pay more for fine stones than westerners will. We rarely see a stone over $2k in English-speaking markets, but large fine suitas and razor/tool finishers are pretty common at $4-6k in Japanese markets, and a large fine piece of uchigumori for sword polishing, I think the sky is the limit.

These hones are the tools of journeymen craftsmen in Japan, and the best stones will bring as much as the best bandsaw or tablesaw, drill press here.

However you decide to do it, there's a good JNat for you at almost any price point, the only question is what you sacrifice, and what you give up may or may not be important to you.

Cheers, Steve

I somewhat agree, after all it is quite akin to getting from point A to Point B, you can get there driving a 10K vehicle as well as one in tens of thousands. Understand that pricing is relative however I feel that the features that drives the price is after all a part of quality.

Just generalising here:
The best acting stone should not cost more than $1k approx. Hiigher cost will be aesthetics weight ,size etc.
A razor stone will also help keep the price down. ie roughly 5"x3". In that size about $500 will get you a top stone, even a pretty one.

I would add the following, i can agree on the idea or theory that in many cases the higher prized stones are better, cleaner, more homogenious, etc...

But i also mentioned it several times, for me the more interesting question is if the difference in price brings you such a big gap which can be filled from the higher prized stone....

I mean why should i buy a stamped Nakayama stone for 2000€ when i get any other japanese Stone working nearly the same way or only a little bit beyond, if the difference is 1900€ because the other one is unstamped and not as good looking and the shaving result is nearly on par, i will always skip the 2000€ Nakayama...

The same is with Thuris, why a barbers delight with Label, when a 100€ Thuri works as good...only when youre into collecting, a labelled one might be interesting...

Just to make an extreme example here....

Originally Posted by doorsch

I would add the following, i can agree on the idea or theory that in many cases the higher prized stones are better, cleaner, more homogenious, etc...

But i also mentioned it several times, for me the more interesting question is if the difference in price brings you such a big gap which can be filled from the higher prized stone....

I mean why should i buy a stamped Nakayama stone for 2000€ when i get any other japanese Stone working nearly the same way or only a little bit beyond, if the difference is 1900€ because the other one is unstamped and not as good looking and the shaving result is nearly on par, i will always skip the 2000€ Nakayama...

The same is with Thuris, why a barbers delight with Label, when a 100€ Thuri works as good...only when youre into collecting, a labelled one might be interesting...

Just to make an extreme example here....

Very true, and prudent. Except if you are a tea room/temple restorer in Japan with 120mm kanna blades instead of straight razors! These are the people driving the prices, not razor people.

5,000€ is a lot of money for a razor hobbyist, but not a lot for a journeyman craftsman's tool by which he makes his living.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Steve56

Very true, and prudent. Except if you are a tea room/temple restorer in Japan with 120mm kanna blades instead of straight razors! These are the people driving the prices, not razor people.

5,000€ is a lot of money for a razor hobbyist, but not a lot for a journeyman craftsman's tool by which he makes his living.

Cheers, Steve

That's true for all the stones. An inch stone thick (if not too soft) will last more than a few lifetimes for a barber, if they know how to use it. The same stone will last 4 months for a professional woodworker. If there were only razors, there would be at least 3x stones around. But... we wouldn't have furniture, doors or houses.

Originally Posted by Steve56

You're kind of right ...
It is fun to hone a razor on a large, beautiful and regular JNat that feels like honing on velvet or greased ice and puts a wonderful feeling edge on the razor. I'll pay for that, but you don't really have to.

Thanks for that sentence Steve, these words describe it the best also in my mind...

...its nice to have such a stone, its great to work on it and the feeling is, (i can guess) awesome! If you want to own it and you have the money, you should have it. You should enjoy it and be the lucky one owning such a stone.......but its not needed....