Thread: coticule vs ss12k?

Can anyone describe the differences in feel of a an edge after honing on these 2 stones (the cot would be the current production ones).

A coticule is a natural stone. The Naniwa 12 is a synthetic. A coticule can leave a very smooth edge. With a master honer it will be very pleasant. Every coticule are different. But every SS12k will be the same.

I find both edges very good. The Naniwa is perhaps a bit sharper.

Besides using a Coticule to sharpen a blade there are times that after I've honed a razor with synthetic hones the edge will feel a little harsh. So, I break out the Coticule to 'soften/smooth' the edge.

So a coticule is not really that bad? Its just different than a ss12k?

I have a coticule and I just wondered if there is anything to gain really. and what the benefits/tradeoffs are.

Here is the problem/complication...
I have over 30 coticules and 2 Naniwa SuperStones 12k hones. The two 12k hones are identical in their performance. I cannot tell one from the other when judging their performanc.

The coticules vary in many ways. For that reason, I cannot compare coticules in general to the 12k synthetics. I especially cannot compare YOUR coticule to that 12k hone.

If you really want to compare your coticule to a SS12k, then you will either have to buy one, borrow one, or have someone in Europe hone a razor on their SS12k and send it to you. Then you can compare the edge off of that hone to the edge off of your coticule.

Regarding your specific question. "I have a coticule and I just wondered if there is anything to gain really. and what the benefits/tradeoffs are." The benefit of the 12k is that you will be able to use a hone that is exactly like a lot of other peoples' hones. This is helpful for conversations here. Other than that, it really is a matter of whether or not you are satisfied with the shave you get from your coticule. Chasing after a better and better hone will not get you a shave that is much better.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Here is the problem/complication...
I have over 30 coticules and 2 Naniwa SuperStones 12k hones. The two 12k hones are identical in their performance. I cannot tell one from the other when judging their performanc.

The coticules vary in many ways. For that reason, I cannot compare coticules in general to the 12k synthetics. I especially cannot compare YOUR coticule to that 12k hone.

If you really want to compare your coticule to a SS12k, then you will either have to buy one, borrow one, or have someone in Europe hone a razor on their SS12k and send it to you. Then you can compare the edge off of that hone to the edge off of your coticule.

Regarding your specific question. "I have a coticule and I just wondered if there is anything to gain really. and what the benefits/tradeoffs are." The benefit of the 12k is that you will be able to use a hone that is exactly like a lot of other peoples' hones. This is helpful for conversations here. Other than that, it really is a matter of whether or not you are satisfied with the shave you get from your coticule. Chasing after a better and better hone will not get you a shave that is much better.

This post about says it all.

I've got a lot of coticules, and they are all different. Out of the many different layers, I use only two .. La Veinnette's from the old mine, and I prefer them over a 12K Superstone, but it's easier to get where you are going on the synthetic .. the price, for me being a slightly more harsh shave.
I've read that, given enough time and patience, a great edge can be coaxed from any coticule. It hasn't worked for me, but perhaps a more experienced coticule aficionado can coax that forth. They do vary quite a bit.
I have zero experience with the currently mined stones.

There's properties I don't like about the SuperStones also, but they do have a nice honing feel, and do deliver the goods rather simply.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Here is the problem/complication...
I have over 30 coticules and 2 Naniwa SuperStones 12k hones. The two 12k hones are identical in their performance. I cannot tell one from the other when judging their performanc.

The coticules vary in many ways. For that reason, I cannot compare coticules in general to the 12k synthetics. I especially cannot compare YOUR coticule to that 12k hone.

If you really want to compare your coticule to a SS12k, then you will either have to buy one, borrow one, or have someone in Europe hone a razor on their SS12k and send it to you. Then you can compare the edge off of that hone to the edge off of your coticule.

Regarding your specific question. "I have a coticule and I just wondered if there is anything to gain really. and what the benefits/tradeoffs are." The benefit of the 12k is that you will be able to use a hone that is exactly like a lot of other peoples' hones. This is helpful for conversations here. Other than that, it really is a matter of whether or not you are satisfied with the shave you get from your coticule. Chasing after a better and better hone will not get you a shave that is much better.

Great post. I would add that in general the coti edge will not feel as sharp as a 12K edge. At least that's what I found with my stones, YMMV.

As Utopian said it is complicated and to add to the complication is the fact that when it comes to naturals be it Coticule, Chinese 12K, etc. the performance will differ from stone to stone depending on what vein/layer the stone came from plus the composition of the minerals in that particular layer. It is very hard to assign a grit number to natural stones. Here is a link to the web site to check out some of the different methods used in honing with a Coticule;
http://www.coticule.be/home.html

As far as synthetics go the material that goes into each particular grit is pretty much controlled at the location producing said stone therefore you have equal consistency in the stones which makes it easier to assign a grit number.

Personally, I prefer edges off natural stones and the Coticule leaves a particularly smooth edge on Sheffield razors. I may create the bevel and do some of the sharpening on synthetics but finish and polish with naturals as they most generally leave a smoother edge than synthetics.

I'm just going to pile on with everyone else.... A 12K SS is a 12K SS is a 12K SS. A coticule cut from the same slab as the one right next to it could be exactly the same or wildly different or somewhere in between. Nobody knows, except the owner of the hone, and only when he/she compares it to other hones.

To perhaps help clear up the confusion, everyone who owns one, knows what a Naniwa 12K SS can do for them. It's a synthetic hone, and being made in a factory will generally be the same from hone to hone ( I shall ignore the problems of lots in this case, but one lot to the next is likely different). Natural stones, no matter where they come from will vary significantly simply due to the randomness of mother nature and the way they were formed some millions of years ago. One can generalize of course, but exact comparisons are impossible because of the variations that are not under a humans control, like they are in a factory.

A case it point, I own ONE coticule hone, purchased some 10 - 15 years ago. It elevated my honing on a Norton 4K/8K to a whole new level back when I got it. Then came the Shapton Glass hones.... I still found benefit to the coticule.... Today I have switched to Naniwa SS hones and I find the edges I get off them quite crisp and sharp, more so than the coticule. I have two other natural stones on order, both will hopefully perform better for *me* than my coticule, and I really should sell the coticule off, but I'm having an awful time deciding to do so, because perhaps I just have not spent enough time with it, to figure it out.

I think Glen (Gssixgun) said it best: "It's hard to beat a 12K Naniwa SS, you can get different edges from natural hones, but it's very hard to get *better*."

It's one of those things you'll have to figure out for yourself. A Naniwa is a solid choice and if you are happy with it.... why look further. If you're NOT as happy as can be with your edges, and you want to look for something else... perhaps a coticule or a Zulu Grey or a Jnat or a [insert rare natural hone here] is the ticket for YOU. Remember also, you can't discount hones other gents sell because it's not working for them, because it might just work for you!

Regards, and good luck.

Christian

These are my beauty's. And to complement the picture the SS 12 K.

Every coticule is different, but I still love them all. Must of them are excellent finishers. They do have different properties, some are faster, and are slow and harder.

The two green ones are harder, but finer. I have 3 hybrids. Two are great finishers, some of my finest, but the last one is more like 5-8K.

Number 3 from right first row, the one with the slurry stone, is very fast one. I exchanged it with another hone and the old owner didn't like it, since it's not a finisher. It's rather from 3-7k. Therefore it fit great in a progression, especially when restoring a razor that's need attention.

On a coticule you need patience and more time. The perfect edge comes with diluting the slurry, adjusting the pressure, adding water and so on.

A Naniwa is very fast. Only about 15 laps is needed. The Naniwa SS stones tend to be cloaked with debris from honing and need to be cleaned often. I practically never clean my coticules.

I love both kinds of hones. And can say which is the best. Sometime a Naniwa is the best choice if I'm in a hurry and sometime a coticule is the best.

I think that the 12k is a bit sharper then the coticule, which on the other hand is a bit more smooth. If you are new to honing a Naniwa will be the best choice. It's very fast and easy to use.