Shapton 16k, mixed grit??

That is the nice thing about the Shapton hones. Harrelson said they use the JIS scale, but they put the micron size right on the hone. He said he believes Shapton is the only company to do that, and it certainly is a helpful feature.

My impression from both conversations is that they have no basis even to speculate about the claimed grit range described by that Dictum site.

This is my own speculation, not that of the people I spoke with today...
IF the claim by Dictum were true, then we would see 6k scratch patterns from that "mixed grit 16k hone." Since we don't, the 16k hones that WE are using are NOT mixed grit. Bottom line for me is that I would not buy a Shapton GlassStone from Dictum. Then again, I was not planning on it anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

IF the claim by Dictum were true, then we would see 6k scratch patterns from that "mixed grit 16k hone." Since we don't, the 16k hones that WE are using are NOT mixed grit.

---

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. Mixed grit of 6,000 and 20,000 does not a 16K hone make. I'm not even sure that would average out to be 10K with all the errant 6K stria that would be scattered around.

Maybe slightly :OT but a stones composition plays a big part in it's characteristics e.g. The Spyderco UF hone is made up of 2k or bigger particles yet it acts like a finishing hone. Because it is a baked ceramic it does not release particles readily like water stones. The surface finish on that type of hone plays a bigger part in its action that the grit size.

Yeah it's not as simple as it sounds really. A lot of different characteristics can be brought out by manipulating the grit mix too. A combination of multiple grits can even make for a much higher density of cutting particles - the smaller ones fill in the dead space between the bigger ones. Of course this isn't always what's wanted either so there's a lot of experimentation to get these characteristics sorted and achieving the desired end result.

The stones with very hard binders and barely friable abrasive are very dependent on surface prep for their finishing characteristics. The stones that are bound softer or that have easily friable abrasive really it doesn't matter how you prep/surface them because they'll just shed any dulled particles and go right back to their default natural surface roughness pretty quickly.

My 16k adds scratches after the 10k. Below you will find some low quality photos taken using Photo Booth and a cheap USB scope, hope they are sufficient.

The straight is a Jerry Stark D2. The first two photos are after the 10k, the second two after the 16k. The shave was very nice with zero irritation.


Attachment 261572
Attachment 261573
Attachment 261574
Attachment 261571

That doesn't look good. I just finished a big heavy 7/8 Joseph Rodgers quarter hollow on my 16k Shapton Glass and all it did was polish. There's no sign of the microchips that some report from over doing it on this stone, nor of the nasty looking gouges seen in your pictures. It's hard to know what's going on there but something gritty has definitely made its mark.

More proof that the Shapton 16k is not just a 16k stone.

I dont know how to include the youtube link from the app. Drmatt reviewed the stones and it showed very coarse scratches.

This Canadian seller of Shapton hones doesn't recommend the 16K for razors.

https://www.paulsfinest.com/collecti...ne-16-000-grit

Having both a 12K Naniwa and a 16K Shapton I can see why it would have been better to go with the 20K Shapton.

Bob

I have been a huge fan of the Shapton glass stones for quite some time and I will say that it is the most precise system available on the market...but not that many honers can get the best of them. They are very fast and you can easily overhone on 16k, the stones have excellent feedback. My personal favorite is a progression from 2,4,8,16k followed by thuringian. A very sharp, but smooth edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGoodman

I have been a huge fan of the Shapton glass stones for quite some time and I will say that it is the most precise system available on the market...but not that many honers can get the best of them. They are very fast and you can easily overhone on 16k, the stones have excellent feedback. My personal favorite is a progression from 2,4,8,16k followed by thuringian. A very sharp, but smooth edge.

---

Me too Scott,

If you are a ‘Glass’ fan and haven’t tried the G7 series, I would encourage you to do so. They are not smaller versions of the HR according to Sharpening Supplies. And they’re 7mm thick vs 5mm.

Other than being thicker, it appears like the same system as the "Glass". Heck, I only hone for myself and its doubtful that I will ever wear these out.

Heads up, the 30k is not worth it as few...very few razors can handle that fine of an edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGoodman

I have been a huge fan of the Shapton glass stones for quite some time and I will say that it is the most precise system available on the market...but not that many honers can get the best of them. They are very fast and you can easily overhone on 16k, the stones have excellent feedback. My personal favorite is a progression from 2,4,8,16k followed by thuringian. A very sharp, but smooth edge.

---

1) The 16k stone is not a 16k stone. It's not a matter of overhoning. One pass on the 16k creates scratches way coarser than 16.000 grit. See the video by drmat on youtube.

2)Many websites sell the 10.000 grit stone at a higher price than the 16.000 grit.

3)Quite a few websites have listed that the shapton 16k stone is made of mixed grit. From I think 2000 to 16000 grit particles.

4)The 16k stone is not recommended for razors.
========================================

If people love the 16k stone, that's great. The point is that is not a 16k stone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SharpMan

1) The 16k stone is not a 16k stone. It's not a matter of overhoning. One pass on the 16k creates scratches way coarser than 16.000 grit.

If people love the 16k stone, that's great. The point is that is not a 16k stone.

---

Mine is a 16k Grit hone
It doesn't produce scratches just a mirror bevel
I have honed more razors with mine than anyone else in the world using it as a final finish and before the 30k


Now if you want to say some of the newer 16k Shapton GS might have an issue, then fine go for it. The 4k Norton's had issues for a few years

But you have ZERO proof all 16k Shaptons are dual grit, mine doesn't have that issue and it seems Scott's has no issues either, there are quite a few other honers on our FB page and on TSD that have no issues with their 16k either

So there ya go

I bought mine in 2008 or 2009

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Mine is a 16k Grit hone
It doesn't produce scratches just a mirror bevel
I have honed more razors with mine than anyone else in the world using it as a final finish and before the 30k


Now if you want to say some of the newer 16k Shapton GS might have an issue, then fine go for it. The 4k Norton's had issues for a few years

But you have ZERO proof all 16k Shaptons are dual grit, mine doesn't have that issue and it seems Scott's has no issues either, there are quite a few other honers on our FB page and on TSD that have no issues with their 16k either

So there ya go

I bought mine in 2008 or 2009

---

1)First of all this is not an issue. Many websites had clearly indicated that the 16000 grit stone was mixed grit. So it's not an error that was made on a few stones. When I ''reported'' on this matter a few years back showing that the site dictum.de(a very well respected company in Germany) had included the mixed grit info, the response here was quite comical like '' must be incorrect translation''.
2)Many websites had/have the 16000 at a lower price than the 10000 grit. That's suspicious right?
3)There are high magnification pictures showing the 16k giving coarser scratches than a 8.000 grit stone.

If anybody has a high resolution magnification picture of the bevel when going from lets say a fine(8 to 12k) stone to the 16.000 which shows a better scratch pattern, please post it. I start getting a mirrory finish around 3-4000 grit. If the shapton 16k is mixed grit consisting of 6 to 16k grit, then it is possible that one might get a mirror like finish, BUT when magnified it will also have coarser scratches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SharpMan

1) The 16k stone is not a 16k stone. It's not a matter of overhoning. One pass on the 16k creates scratches way coarser than 16.000 grit. See the video by drmat on youtube.

2)Many websites sell the 10.000 grit stone at a higher price than the 16.000 grit.

3)Quite a few websites have listed that the shapton 16k stone is made of mixed grit. From I think 2000 to 16000 grit particles.

4)The 16k stone is not recommended for razors.
========================================

If people love the 16k stone, that's great. The point is that is not a 16k stone.

---

Another armchair honer that can only state what they have read when they really don't KNOW what they are talking about.

And by the way, we have looked at the scratches in VERY high tech scopes. Specifically Dr. Ron's equipment at Charlie's annual meets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SharpMan

1)First of all this is not an issue. Many websites had clearly indicated that the 16000 grit stone was mixed grit. So it's not an error that was made on a few stones. When I ''reported'' on this matter a few years back showing that the site dictum.de(a very well respected company in Germany) had included the mixed grit info, the response here was quite comical like '' must be incorrect translation''.
2)Many websites had/have the 16000 at a lower price than the 10000 grit. That's suspicious right?
3)There are high magnification pictures showing the 16k giving coarser scratches than a 8.000 grit stone.

If anybody has a high resolution magnification picture of the bevel when going from lets say a fine(8 to 12k) stone to the 16.000 which shows a better scratch pattern, please post it. I start getting a mirrory finish around 3-4000 grit. If the shapton 16k is mixed grit consisting of 6 to 16k grit, then it is possible that one might get a mirror like finish, BUT when magnified it will also have coarser scratches.

---

How many Different straight razors have you honed with your 16k Shapton ???
How many Different 16k Shaptons have you tested ???

Please let us know

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGoodman

Another armchair honer that can only state what they have read when they really don't KNOW what they are talking about.

---

I think you are on to something

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGoodman

Another armchair honer that can only state what they have read when they really don't KNOW what they are talking about.

---

This is a very strong argument, bravo. Obviously I'm being sarcastic cause it's actually quite a dumb statement. I'll tell you why:
- If not just one, but quite a few websites on the product page of the Shapton 16.000 grit stated that the stone is made of mixed grit, from 6k to 16k, then a consumer should use that information to judge whether to buy or not to buy the stone.
- If the Shapton 16.000 grit is cheaper than the 10.000 grit, clue number 2.
- There have been complaints of quite some users that the Shapton 16k gives coarser scratches and there are pictures that show this very clearly. Pictures on the internet that we can look up ourselves. Even a video by drmatt.

Now the question is not whether I can convince you or you can convince me. I started this because I wanted to inform potential buyers about this stone. Based on the information I have seen(information on the product page of different websellers, a lower price than a lower grit, the feedback from some users and pictures of the edge) I would definitely not recommend this stone.

Shapton glass 8k
https://i0.wp.com/i765.photobucket.c...85-8Kglass.jpg

vs

Shapton glass 16k:


https://i0.wp.com/i765.photobucket.c...0strokes-2.jpg

DrMatts video, from 6:00 the comparison with the naniwa 12k.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn10...nnel=DrMatt357

A razor finished on 0.5 micron compound is already perfect or as I like to call it 9/10 broke.
All that video shows is a "decent" edge at 10 passes being destroyed by overhoning.
Why anyone would do more than 10 strokes on a 16k GS is beyond me.
The scratches in the bevel are cosmetic & irrelevant to the edge or it would have chipped the edge before 10 passes.

That the Naniwa was less destructive shows that it is a softer slower stone. Comparing the 12k Naniwa to something like a gentle coticule would reproduce the results. You could probably do 400 passes on some coticules with no damage where the Naniwa would likely destroy the edge after about 100 passes. Apples & oranges.

Silly thread wasting everyone's time and forum space from a 'member' who last posted in '17 and whose latest post has been 'liked' by another 'member' who has not posted since '17.
Remarkable..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SharpMan

This is a very strong argument, bravo. Obviously I'm being sarcastic cause it's actually quite a dumb statement. I'll tell you why:
- If not just one, but quite a few websites on the product page of the Shapton 16.000 grit stated that the stone is made of mixed grit, from 6k to 16k, then a consumer should use that information to judge whether to buy or not to buy the stone.
- If the Shapton 16.000 grit is cheaper than the 10.000 grit, clue number 2.
- There have been complaints of quite some users that the Shapton 16k gives coarser scratches and there are pictures that show this very clearly. Pictures on the internet that we can look up ourselves. Even a video by drmatt.

Now the question is not whether I can convince you or you can convince me. I started this because I wanted to inform potential buyers about this stone. Based on the information I have seen(information on the product page of different websellers, a lower price than a lower grit, the feedback from some users and pictures of the edge) I would definitely not recommend this stone.

,

---

Once again how many SR's have YOU personally honed on your Shapton 16k
How many different Shapton16k hones have YOU tested on SR's




We are awaiting your answer,

It seems you are only giving us other's opinions, have you actually ever used one ???
How was the shave, does it even effect the shave ??

We all know that Coticules leave a VERY scratched finish on the bevel but people swear by the comfort from the edge,,

So what have you found from your extensive testing of SR's edges over the last 5 years since you first opened this thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Silly thread wasting everyone's time and forum space from a 'member' who last posted in '17 and whose latest post has been 'liked' by another 'member' who has not posted since '17.
Remarkable..

---

I am thinking you are right, I am getting very tired of these "Info Experts" they collected tons of data but have very little hands on experience..
We don't get many here on the forum, there are hundreds on the FB groups...

If I felt this was a credible person, i would gladly swap or evaluate their 16k. All it would take is a few strokes on an unknown 16k and I would know if its a "mixed" grit. Only thing I can think of is that its a bash on a good product, there could be a "skin" on the new stone, or the stone or razor is not clean.

We haven't encountered a troll from "other" sites in a while.

I have honed on 4 other 16k's over the years at the meet ups,,, I wasn't "Testing" them for this issue, as you well know at many of the Meets they break down into honing sessions and general BS'n
If somebody had a Shapton set out and ready to go I would just sit down and start honing, I never noticed any issues, and we were always passing the blades around the table to be inspected under Magnification as we honed,,

Maybe there are issues out there, but this BOLD statement that all of them are mixed grit hones I gotta call BS on or they are basing their opinions off a very small sample size which is irresponsible..

Too ,many people here in this very thread have Shapton 16k's and are calling BS over the last 5 years too..

I have noticed he never answered my direct questions either

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I have honed on 4 other 16k's over the years at the meet ups,,, I wasn't "Testing" them for this issue, as you well know at many of the Meets they break down into honing sessions and general BS'n
If somebody had a Shapton set out and ready to go I would just sit down and start honing, I never noticed any issues, and we were always passing the blades around the table to be inspected under Magnification as we honed,,

Maybe there are issues out there, but this BOLD statement that all of them are mixed grit hones I gotta call BS on or they are basing their opinions off a very small sample size which is irresponsible..

Too ,many people here in this very thread have Shapton 16k's and are calling BS over the last 5 years too..

I have noticed he never answered my direct questions either

---

Glen,

I suspect but have not a shred of evidence, that the difference is the hardness of the binder, which may vary a little among the grits. I think, and also do not have a shred of evidence, that Shapton really made more than one progression in the same ‘HR’ line based on the binder hardness or other binder characteristics?

At least one vendor is saying that the 16k is mixed, Paul’s Finest in Canada.

Now everyone is making me want a 16k Shapton HR Glass which I have been perfectly happy without …

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve56

Glen,

I suspect but have not a shred of evidence, that the difference is the hardness of the binder, which may vary a little among the grits. I think, and also do not have a shred of evidence, that Shapton really made more than one progression in the same ‘HR’ line based on the binder hardness or other binder characteristics?

At least one vendor is saying that the 16k is mixed, Paul’s Finest in Canada.

Now everyone is making me want a 16k Shapton HR Glass which I have been perfectly happy without …

---

I just saw a response from Howard on a sperate topic mentioning that Shapton, Norton, and SpyderCo, need to be "Cleaned" before use because of something called Mold Chill
Reading about it, reminded me of the Naniwa Super Stones when you had to lap off the top 1/32 to get a suitable honing surface..

Not sure what they are running into, but telling me my 16k is a mixed grit ain't convincing in the least, and you know my feelings of Non SR honers and their advice

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I just saw a response from Howard on a sperate topic mentioning that Shapton, Norton, and SpyderCo, need to be "Cleaned" before use because of something called Mold Chill
Reading about it, reminded me of the Naniwa Super Stones when you had to lap off the top 1/32 to get a suitable honing surface..

Not sure what they are running into, but telling me my 16k is a mixed grit ain't convincing in the least, and you know my feelings of Non SR honers and their advice

---

Yep, I’ve encounterd a ‘top skin’ , it’s maybe common. I never did Nortons, but it sounds like some Nortons needed more than flattening/deglazing.

Gotta remember Shapton's recommendations are simply that... recommendations.

If we followed them to the letter we'd only have 3 stones to use. Ain't no fun in that :roflmao

Here’s the proof, maybe we’re all wrong, lol. Email from Shapton Japan to one of our own members, David was actually asking about the Shapton Glass HC 16k and 30k for me! I’ve left his email visible because he is a member here.

Thank you David!

Attachment 340425

Interesting...

Thanks Steve

Likely the reason Paul's Finest in Canada does not recommend the 16K for razors and has done so for a few years now.

Bob

YW Glen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobH

Likely the reason Paul's Finest in Canada does not recommend the 16K for razors and has done so for a few years now.

Bob

---

Yep, I noticed that at Paul’s Finest too.

Most all of us hone razors on Glass Stones that Shapton does not recommend for razors, you have to especially for any coarse work. I just got a Glass Stone 320 for a really bad kamisori that I’ve been working on.

The list that Shapton sent to David is their current offerings and price list in JPY. It doesn’t show up well in the other image because of ‘dark mode’ but here’s the current Glass Stone offerings and prices. If you want approximate US dollars, move the decimal point two places to the left. Example, 4200¥ is about $42 US. More or less. Prices are higher here because of shipping and markup, but usually not excessively so. The 120 grit is $48 at Sharpening Supplies and they run on the high side but their service is excellent.

Attachment 340446

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve56

YW Glen.



Yep, I noticed that at Paul’s Finest too.

Most all of us hone razors on Glass Stones that Shapton does not recommend for razors, you have to especially for any coarse work. I just got a Glass Stone 320 for a really bad kamisori that I’ve been working on.

---

What you are saying brings into question whether Shapton does not know what they are saying about the hones they make and you fellas do or vice versa. I can see where that leaves some confused.

Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobH

What you are saying brings into question whether Shapton does not know what they are saying about the hones they make and you fellas do or vice versa. I can see where that leaves some confused.

Bob

---

I think that Shapton’s recommendations regarding the 3k-10k-30k sequence is based on beginning with a new razor that’s properly made and ground and does not need corrective honing. And they would likely be right. What else would they assume?

You have to remember that Shapton don’t know what eBay special, Gold Dollar, Pakistani, frowning, badly ground, chipped, or worn razor that you’re honing or restoring. If you have to deal with the full range of razor conditions, you would of course need the full range of hones. And maybe a few diamond plates or a belt sander.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve56

I think that Shapton’s recommendations regarding the 3k-10k-30k sequence is based on beginning with a new razor that’s properly made and ground and does not need corrective honing. And they would likely be right. What else would they assume?

You have to remember that Shapton don’t know what eBay special, Gold Dollar, Pakistani, frowning, badly ground, chipped, or worn razor that you’re honing or restoring. If you have to deal with the full range of razor conditions, you would of course need the full range of hones. And maybe a few diamond plates or a belt sander.

---

I was not referring to the use of all Shapton hones but just the 16K mentioned in the title of the thread. That seems to generate the controversy and is notably absent in your referenced recommended Shapton hone progression for razors. It is a given that you may need other coarser grits of hones depending on the condition of a particular razor. Anyway I doubt this thread will put the use of the Shapton 16K on razors to rest one way or the other.

Bob

I actually got a response from Shapton.

=====================

Thank you for your inquiry.

First of all, particle sizes of abrasive are not perfectly even. The abrasive of GS16000 has wider distribution of particle size relatively. Of course, its center particle size is smaller than the one of GS10000. However, because of such feature of the abrasive of GS16000, we don’t recommend to use GS16000 after GS10000 and GS8000. The strong point of GS16000 is that you can jump to it from lower grit stone. For example, our 50408/3pcs Set is composed with GS500, GS2000, and GS16000.

We are sorry for such confusion and complexity. Your judgment was right. GS16000 is not appropriate to use after GS10000. Instead, you can use GS16000 just after GS3000. In addition, it seems that you should to add one more between GS3000 and GS10000, such as, GS6000. Furthermore, when using GS16000, you will be able to get better result by 1) short stroke and 2) loose hand-pressure.

Hope this information will help you.

Thank you for choosing SHAPTON.



Best regards,



SHAPTON Co., Ltd.

For fun, I once set the bevel and finished the edge with my 16k.
As I remember, it shaved fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobH

I was not referring to the use of all Shapton hones but just the 16K mentioned in the title of the thread. That seems to generate the controversy and is notably absent in your referenced recommended Shapton hone progression for razors. It is a given that you may need other coarser grits of hones depending on the condition of a particular razor. Anyway I doubt this thread will put the use of the Shapton 16K on razors to rest one way or the other.

Bob

---

There seems to be two different topics in this thread, one is specific to the suitability of the 16k Glass Stone HR, and the other is ‘How unsuitable is it and the other ones that aren’t recommended?’ The 3k - 10k - 30k HR series is Shapton’srecommendation not mine, I don’t have the 10k or the 30k.

The latter question will. probably have to be decided by the user depending on what they’re doing. Shapton make the same kind of recommendations with the Kuromaku/Pro too, the recommendations are on the paper belt, or obi that comes on the box, and Oz Parker stated somewhere I believe, that the chart he posted was made from the information on those belts.

Anyway, between the two replies from Shapton both questions seem to be answered, at least from Shapton’s point of view.