Thread: New stone Japanese natural, Ozuku Asagi

To take a penetrating glimpse of the obvious, the 1st shave after a 20k touch up is a little less forgiving because it is such a fine stone. So in the future I'll be a little more circumspect with my technique on a fresh 20k edge.....lol

Originally Posted by onimaru55

You do realise the Gok20 is finer than any Jnat that exists so the edge is therefore sharper. To avoid weepers is literally in your hands ie less pressure & flat angle.

@ DaveW : I can't fault the Gok 20 edges. YMMV.

I wouldn't say I fault them. They are what they are - a half micron alumina edge. If anyone would say you can't shave with them, they'd be fibbing. They are a bit brash, though - compared to an edge that's been teased with linen and leather for a while. Not any sharper, but less smooth. Such an edge isn't something a pro honer can supply, though - it takes a shaver time to develop an edge that has correct geometry but where the edge itself is without damage and the molecules exposed at the edge have not seen a stone or abrasive as hard as steel.

If one is to use a natural stone and try to use it like a synthetic, the edge will come out better with the Gok 20. I was expecting something unrealistic from it, though - something better than chrome ox powder on very hard horse butt. It doesn't do that. I do like that it can (or at least could at the time) be had for about 2 bills and in a stone that will last 9 lifetimes vs. the very thin looking glasstone.

I would take most natural koppa or an ark stone over it. The particles are larger in both types of those natural stone, but their hardness is in the range of iron carbides, so skill can overcome the particle size issue if you have time with them, especially if time means lots of iteration and a "relationship" with each stone (the first time someone told me about developing a relationship with a quality natural stone, I thought they were full of poo - I have learned since then that you can use a different term that's less romantic, but the thought is relevant. It's like woodworking. Sometimes you're looking just to do something well woodworking, but not necessarily obsessed with "getting better". You use familiar tools and somehow you get better, anyway, due to familiarity and repetition).

For the first year that I used natural stones, I'm sure I would've gotten better results with a gok. I also have the advantage that you and others have, I've been through some natural stones and found stones that I like. If I got a run of the mill shoubu stone that should have been sold as a prefinisher, I couldn't make magic with it and match the gok.

Originally Posted by bobski

The best advice that I respect is pointing me to acquiring some nagura stones, from Botan to Mejiro to Tomo. It's all a learn for me at the moment, my only plan was to get a few genuine very hard, fine finishing jnats and go to them after a 10k synthetic edge. That's what I've done do far, but of course I'll advance my thoughts by listening to other more knowledgeable folks.

You'll get a different answer from everyone you ask. I think a good coarse stone to precede japanese stones is an arkansas stone, and not a synthetic. It's been my experience that you get in less trouble because a slurry-less ark stone will usually not damage an edge whereas some razors just won't tolerate synthetic routines. I have chisels from a highly regarded maker. They're so hard that they will fail late in the honing routine from damage taken early on (for example, if you try to grind the primary angle on them with a crystolon stone, the edge will crumble at later steps. Diamonds are completely out of the question. For chisels, that's a pain, because you are taking the hardest thing you can find and then restricting yourself to slower stones - which means users need to be able to avoid any kind of damage other than regular wear.).

As far as razors go, I would presume that may be possible with razors, too - that some razors will prefer a more gentle groove. I never got on with the nagura, though it's the same idea - the truly genuine asano naguras have gotten very expensive, and there seem to be tons of them popping up (just like there are all of the sudden a lot of vintage fender guitars - the reality is that a lot of those guitars are fakes).

For razors, a good quality suita stone is also an acceptable pre-polisher. I like those for tools and have learned to appreciate them for razors. They don't need to be big. A $100 175x65mm stone is the same as one 35mm longer, 15 wider and twice as thick, except the large stone will be $500. They get you on the doorstep of a finisher, and take away the need for the finisher to be fast. And they aren't harsh - they're reasonably fast, but mellow at the same time.

As for all of them, my razors never see anything but tomonagura and clear water on a finish stone after they're set up. Or if used on an ark stone, just the arkansas stone itself. Everything before that is just to set up a razor that's new or that's been set up incorrectly before. After getting hyped up on stones, I asked a guy who has been shaving for 40 years what he's done to keep his razor in shape, and he said horse leather and the occasional touch up on a black arkansas stone that hasn't been lapped in decades ("once in a great while" is what he described for honing. Same razor for all 40 years).

I'm not really making a point here, I know. If i was, it would be that there is no one way. I would say beware of dealers who mark up plain stones 3x and beware of $200 sets of naguras that look brand new. The coarser sets of naguras can be scratchy, as can the fraudulently marked finer ones. Beware also of someone who tells you that you need those naguras and a super-quality finish stone. You need a hard one that's fine and not scratchy in that case. If the naguras are doing the heavy lifting, then chasing after the unicorn stone that is super fine and fast cutting and mellow (which is a high cost proposition) is sort of like wearing belt and suspenders.

Hi all,
Recently I bought Ozuku stone. I tried it after Naniva SS 8k and 10k, on my test razor, was playing both with naguras progression, tomo (which is diamond plate in my case) and clean water only.. But I can not say I enjoyed the result at the end unfortunately. The edge of the razor looked more satin than mirror and shaving was not that clean and smooth. HHT was ok after the strop but the shaving and the satin edge disappointed me. Something inside me is telling me that razor could be sharper after Naniva SS 8k-10k.. I understand that each natural stone is waiting for the correct approach and many-many tries, but maybe someone could share with experience and give me a guidance and advance how would be better to proceed...

Originally Posted by Vart1980

Hi all,
Recently I bought Ozuku stone. I tried it after Naniva SS 8k and 10k, on my test razor, was playing both with naguras progression, tomo (which is diamond plate in my case) and clean water only.. But I can not say I enjoyed the result at the end unfortunately. The edge of the razor looked more satin than mirror and shaving was not that clean and smooth. HHT was ok after the strop but the shaving and the satin edge disappointed me. Something inside me is telling me that razor could be sharper after Naniva SS 8k-10k.. I understand that each natural stone is waiting for the correct approach and many-many tries, but maybe someone could share with experience and give me a guidance and advance how would be better to proceed...

So many questions!
Where did you get the Ozuku? Reliable source?, meant for razors?
If you are looking for a Jnat to polish more than synthetic stop looking
Hazy is a characteristic of Jnats especially if you used any slurry.
Magnification sure helps when evaluating a stone.
Did you have a great shaving edge from the 10K before you started on the Jnat?
Initial testing I would avoid all stone combinations with it - no naguras.
Try a light slurry with diamond plate and test the edge. Did it improve the edge or degrade it? What happened at the edge?
If it was smooth but not quite keen enough try water only strokes for a bit to polish it up some, try again.
The quality of the stone may not be the best.
Quality magnification will aid you in what is happening at the very edge.

Diamond plates slurry is not always the best!
1) make sure your stone is lapped flat
2) surfacing the stone can help (taking any slurry stone or maybe the 8k synthetic stone to smooth the surface some
3) start with water only laps. Normally I'd suggest tomo slurry but if all you have is a diamond plate maybe this will be better.

Some stones work fine with diamond plate slurry but the above should help take out some possible reasons a stone might not finish well and give you an idea i
Of where you stone finishes

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

So many questions!
Where did you get the Ozuku? Reliable source?, meant for razors?
If you are looking for a Jnat to polish more than synthetic stop looking
Hazy is a characteristic of Jnats especially if you used any slurry.
Magnification sure helps when evaluating a stone.
Did you have a great shaving edge from the 10K before you started on the Jnat?
Initial testing I would avoid all stone combinations with it - no naguras.
Try a light slurry with diamond plate and test the edge. Did it improve the edge or degrade it? What happened at the edge?
If it was smooth but not quite keen enough try water only strokes for a bit to polish it up some, try again.
The quality of the stone may not be the best.
Quality magnification will aid you in what is happening at the very edge.

Thank for the feedback
Got Ozuku Ipponsen from here it was positioned as finishing stone for razors.
Well, concerning 10K I would not say I had a great shaving before, since usually I finish with Escher or similar Thuringian.. This is my first experience with JNAT.
When you mean no naguras you mean to avoid botan, tenjyo e t c? Yes, I did try with diamond 1000 k as well. The result is still not the best.. So I tried naguras set. Diamond plate. Water only strokes.. 50 strokes.. 100 strokes.. but can not feel its getting sharp enough.
The face of the stone was flattened with SK11 diamond plate first 400 grit then 1000 grit. Plate is quite ok since I also used for it for the other stones and it still works perfectly. The face of Ozuku after lapping looks like it does not have any foreign inclusions.. I mean stone does not look suspicious. Came with
大突
and
本撰
which are gone after lapped flat

Originally Posted by Christian1

Diamond plates slurry is not always the best!
1) make sure your stone is lapped flat
2) surfacing the stone can help (taking any slurry stone or maybe the 8k synthetic stone to smooth the surface some
3) start with water only laps. Normally I'd suggest tomo slurry but if all you have is a diamond plate maybe this will be better.

Some stones work fine with diamond plate slurry but the above should help take out some possible reasons a stone might not finish well and give you an idea i
Of where you stone finishes

Yes, I see. but unfortunately I have no tomo, so can survive only with 1000 k diamond.
I did 100 strokes plus minus on clean water. Can not feel any effect. Still, since I'm new with JNATs it still can be I'm doing something wrong.. Don't know yet what..

Originally Posted by Vart1980

Thank for the feedback
Got Ozuku Ipponsen from here it was positioned as finishing stone for razors.
Well, concerning 10K I would not say I had a great shaving before, since usually I finish with Escher or similar Thuringian.. This is my first experience with JNAT.
When you mean no naguras you mean to avoid botan, tenjyo e t c? Yes, I did try with diamond 1000 k as well. The result is still not the best.. So I tried naguras set. Diamond plate. Water only strokes.. 50 strokes.. 100 strokes.. but can not feel its getting sharp enough.
The face of the stone was flattened with SK11 diamond plate first 400 grit then 1000 grit. Plate is quite ok since I also used for it for the other stones and it still works perfectly. The face of Ozuku after lapping looks like it does not have any foreign inclusions.. I mean stone does not look suspicious. Came with
大突
and
本撰
which are gone after lapped flat

What do you normally finish on before Escher?
If you can get a good edge on a Thury from ? You should easily get a decent edge from your Jnat.
I am not of the belief that you have to "unlock" a stone's magical code to get it to work. Its really not complicated.
From a decent 8k or better edge you should be able to use any other finisher either with water or oil alone (whatever medium the stone dictates) or a light slurry.
Very broadly - Razor quality Jnats can seem too keen when used with water alone so using a light slurry will smooth the edge some.
Using Nagura Tenjyou, Mejirou etc creates too many variables. They are for using your base stone when starting at a much lower grit - 1k-3k for example.They are a progression just like synthetics.
When testing a finish stone I always start at 8k synthetic as a baseline. It should improve that edge.

Get a good shaving edge on a razor, then just do 30 water only strokes on the jnat. Might not get the jnat feel, but I'd the edge is too dull to shave with you might not have a razor stone.