Thread: Arkansas

Great thread guys! Debates like this is what makes SRP such a good place to get real first hand information on tough topics. Not watered down opinios!

“I felt no sticking at any point, I think from Boz that sticking is a good indicator of razor done and the oil need to lighten up to finish. Correct me if I misunderstood.”

That a razor sticks to a stone is an indicator that the bevel is flat at the point that it is sticking. It does not mean that the whole bevel is flat or that both sides are flat… or that the edges are meeting fully.

It is possible to have a flat bevel with an incomplete, or no edge.

So stiction is not an indicator of “razor done”, just that one spot is flat to the stone. If you had a proper straight and chip free edge before you went to the finish stone, you could have improved the edge. But if it the bevels were not fully meeting at a chip free edge, it is doubtful that the finish stone brought the edges to meeting fully.

It may shave, but not as well as it could.

I mention this because based on the last photo the OP posted, in a recent other thread, of his 8k bevels, the edge was not straight and chip free.

The razor should be shave ready at the 8K level, before the finishing stone. I frequently go to my Arks from a 12k

Same hear. Ready to shave, then the Ark. Think of the Ark, as a stone that burnishes an edge, Steve. Ark finishers do not remove metal, like others. That's why all the necessary laps, their extremely slooow.

You must have patience, young Jedi. The force is within you.

Originally Posted by outback

Same hear. Ready to shave, then the Ark. Think of the Ark, as a stone that burnishes an edge, Steve. Ark finishers do not remove metal, like others. That's why all the necessary laps, their extremely slooow.

You must have patience, young Jedi. The force is within you.

That's certainly an easier way to do it. I have been doing this ark bevel set to finish thing as an exercise and it has worked really well for me. I've been playing with it like I would play with an old bow saw instead of the chainsaw. Plus that little hard stone is just so "magical" (yes I know it is not magic but it can make magic but "magical" is just a metaphor)

Originally Posted by Euclid440

I mention this because based on the last photo the OP posted, in a recent other thread, of his 8k bevels, the edge was not straight and chip free.

Hi Marty,

I understand that Arks are going to be one steep learning curve.

Yesterday afternoon, I bought a load more wet n dry, Smiths honing fliud, glycerin, and a big ol bottle of Simple Green for when my vintage Pike Norton No1 gets here.

I get what you mean about my edge but with all due respect to your years of experience and willingness to advise and help me of which I am very grateful, I feel I made a mistake posting those microscope photo's. The microscope pics can be made to look really good and hide problems or they can be made to look bad so I question the real usefulness. I use them for my own information now.

It would seem that a lot of experienced honers, if not most don't use a microscope but are satisfied with a loupe which is what I use now for the most part.

The microscope was most useful to me before I understood what I was seeing in the loupe.

One of the reasons I question the microscope is that it shows things like the microchips that wouldn't be seen with a loupe and so wouldn't be on most peoples radar.

If I am completely wrong I sincerely apologize, I would be very interested in seeing other honers microscope pictures as a comparison to mine.

That edge was from an old beater that the person that generously sent it to me to practice honing on and said it had never shaved well. I'm pleased with it because regardless of that microscope pic, it shave so well now it is one of the razors I look forward to using.

I have looked at some brand new edges of razors that I got from people here and although really really sharp, under the microscope don't look much different to mine so as I said, I think the microscope might be more of a hindrance than a help.

The pic used to demonstrate a great 8k edge does indeed look great but i can't help but wonder if by magnifying it another 10x, flaws wouldn't be visible. As I say, a great edge in a loupe will be good enough for me I think.

Actually, the edges that I created on a few razors of good quality are a lot better, even with a microscope.

I am confident that my edges are good enough for a translucent ark but at the risk of generating a few more messages, I intend to use my trans in conjunction with my vintage Washita to set a bevel and progress to finish without touching a synth. I know what you're thinking but people do it so I am going to.

It might take me a long time to be successful but I am semi retired and if I get to spend all day everyday playing with my razors, I don't see a downside.

As I said, I meant no disrespect and I am, will always be grateful for your and everyone's advice. I am all in or all out and bloody minded, so I will get the hang of these rocks unless I run out of stone or steel first.

By the way, I checked the flatness of the trans with a square and it is perfectly flat, but I left a factory edge on one side and put a grid on the other with a sharpie.

The lowest git wet n dry I have is 320 so I started there, it took a long long time to remove all that pen (my shoulder still aches). I re applied the sharpy and used 400, that went much faster, I sharpied again and moved to 600, again it went quickly. I didn't have any small steps up so moved to 1200 after marking the stone again.

I haven't burnished it because i am not sure if I want to but I do have a really smooth stone now, not shiny but so smooth. I can't wait to wipe a razor on it.

I do have a question, if the edge is already very good off a 12k synth. How do you know when you have done with an ark, before shaving of course?

Please don't stop offering advice, I have found it invaluable.

Assuming your edge is good off the 12k, feel for rough spots on the trans, when all feels consistent on each side for the entire length of the blade you should be done. Stiction, smooth feeling, rough spots. All these you can see with a loupe. Pay close attention to what the feedback is telling you, then use the loupe to help discern what exactly it is you are feeling. The other side of the coin is lube and pressure, in this case we have a 3 sided coin. Change the variables one at a time whether it’s the finish of your stone, the amount of torque you use and how you use it, and the type of lubrication. All these with affect the edge feel on your face as well as how keen the edge is. For finishing your ark start low with the grits work your way up, and experiment with burnishing. Make sure to burnish the edges of the stone and down onto the radius of the edge of the stone for all the same reasons as Marty pointed out about a consistent finish. We spend lots of time making these stones work well for shaving, you don’t want to ruin it because you didn’t spend enough time tidying up the honing surface. The nice thing about an Ark is that it is really clear I’m telling you whether your surface is consistent or not.

Everyone that does not use high magnification, bad mouths high magnification. Most of those folks already know how to hone, and probably don’t even need a loupe.

Your 8k edge shows, you are not honing to the edge, and probably did not fully set the bevel. It is a common issue with most new honers. You should be able to see that with a 10x loupe or strong light and the naked eye… if you know what to look for.

Look at the photos on the post, (My Second try at Honing), that has been referred to in this and other of your posts. Look at PCM’s edges. He too, did not get it at first, and did not set the bevel until post 51, 20 days after his first post. He too fought it, until he got it. You did not need a Micrograph to see he was not honing to the edge.

Inexpensive micrographs allow all of us to see the same thing, no they cannot be altered to show something that is not there, without Photoshop. They show result in detail, so you can compare one technique to another.

New honers need to see as much as they can to understand what they see and understand causes and solutions. If magnification is so deceiving, why use any magnification at all?

Saying I do not need to see an issue in detail, does not make it go away. Go by any Driving range and you will see hundreds of guys smacking golf balls in every direction but straight, they think they are practicing. But what are they practicing?

A pro, will hit balls but, will have a coach behind him with a video camera and after each shot, they will discuss each aspect of the shot and look at video, dissect every part, the grip, stance and swing. A pro will use every advantage to understand how to better hit a golf ball. The one who wins a golf tournament is the one who makes the fewest mistakes.

Pros spend more time putting because games are won or lost on the putting green. You only drive 18 balls off the tee. You will make multiple putts with each hole. Pros practice putting, and you never see anyone at the public golf course on the practice green. So, really for folks on the driving range, the ladder is on the wrong wall.

Probably the worst thing about folks deriding micrographs is that new honers believe it, because they want to believe honing is easier that they have discovered. Most give up.

The other benefit is distance learning, PCM was in New Hampshire, I am in California. Really honing is not that difficult, if you understand the process.

How do you understand the process? You look at it with magnification and compare it to other micrographs of what it should look like at each stage. Or spend hours over a stone, doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Check you ladder, the problem is not the micrograph…

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Everyone that does not use high magnification, bad mouths high magnification. Most of those folks already know how to hone, and probably don’t even need a loupe.

Your 8k edge shows, you are not honing to the edge, and probably did not fully set the bevel. It is a common issue with most new honers. You should be able to see that with a 10x loupe or strong light and the naked eye… if you know what to look for.

Look at the photos on the post, (My Second try at Honing), that has been referred to in this and other of your posts. Look at PCM’s edges. He too, did not get it at first, and did not set the bevel until post 51, 20 days after his first post. He too fought it, until he got it. You did not need a Micrograph to see he was not honing to the edge.

Inexpensive micrographs allow all of us to see the same thing, no they cannot be altered to show something that is not there, without Photoshop. They show result in detail, so you can compare one technique to another.

New honers need to see as much as they can to understand what they see and understand causes and solutions. If magnification is so deceiving, why use any magnification at all?

Saying I do not need to see an issue in detail, does not make it go away. Go by any Driving range and you will see hundreds of guys smacking golf balls in every direction but straight, they think they are practicing. But what are they practicing?

A pro, will hit balls but, will have a coach behind him with a video camera and after each shot, they will discuss each aspect of the shot and look at video, dissect every part, the grip, stance and swing. A pro will use every advantage to understand how to better hit a golf ball. The one who wins a golf tournament is the one who makes the fewest mistakes.

Pros spend more time putting because games are won or lost on the putting green. You only drive 18 balls off the tee. You will make multiple putts with each hole. Pros practice putting, and you never see anyone at the public golf course on the practice green. So, really for folks on the driving range, the ladder is on the wrong wall.

Probably the worst thing about folks deriding micrographs is that new honers believe it, because they want to believe honing is easier that they have discovered. Most give up.

The other benefit is distance learning, PCM was in New Hampshire, I am in California. Really honing is not that difficult, if you understand the process.

How do you understand the process? You look at it with magnification and compare it to other micrographs of what it should look like at each stage. Or spend hours over a stone, doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Check you ladder, the problem is not the micrograph…

Ok, point taken. I have uploaded microscope pics in "honing/Want my edges correct". I didn't want to get too off topic here because this an ark thread.

I had a delivery.