Thread: Barber hone vs Escher/etc

Originally Posted by Utopian

I'd still grab the Itsapeech, because
1. There is no way in hell that I would leave an Escher in my locker!
2. The barber hone is faster.

I can't think of anything else. I guess that's not much of a list! My main reason for using them was simply that I wanted to keep it simple and traditional. I'll tell you what, I'll bring a relatively cheap Escher into my locker and use that for the next few months. I'll continue to use the same 3 to 5 strokes and see if I frequently have to repeat the touch ups. If so, I'll bump up the stroke count and see just what it takes to use only an Escher for touch ups.

I will hypothesize that it will work just like a barber hone but will likely require more strokes. I base this on the apparent difference in grit size when viewing the hones under a microscope.

So, I'll try to remember to report back within 6 months!

Thanks for the further info!

That would be a sweet test if you had the chance to do it.

In any event, are you saying, at least on some level, that a barber hone (or just the itsapeech) is as good of a finishing hone (or better) than an escher?

Or maybe there is there some difference that I'm not yet realizing between touching up a razor and the initial honing which includes finishing on a finishing hone? Is there a reason that the barber hone would be a great touchup hone (it's faster for example) but a poor finishing hone? I'm not sure I can understand how this could be, if it is the case?

Originally Posted by pjrage

Thanks for the further info!

That would be a sweet test if you had the chance to do it.

In any event, are you saying, at least on some level, that a barber hone (or just the itsapeech) is as good of a finishing hone (or better) than an escher?

Or maybe there is there some difference that I'm not yet realizing between touching up a razor and the initial honing which includes finishing on a finishing hone? Is there a reason that the barber hone would be a great touchup hone (it's faster for example) but a poor finishing hone? I'm not sure I can understand how this could be, if it is the case?

No, it's completely a matter of degrees. Keep in mind that you CAN shave off of a Norton 8K, which is considered to be a polishing hone. The edge that most people are after is better than that though. The reason that most of the hone fascination is in the upper end of the grit spectrum is that is where all the subtle tweaking is done. There are great differences in 1K hones as well but who cares? They just prep the edge for the cool stuff later in the honing progression.

You CAN use some barber hones, like Swatys, as finishing hones after a Norton 8K, and it will improve the edge. An Escher will give a better edge but it will take more strokes to do it. The actual grit size, even if it accurately can be determined, is not the end all be all of what makes a great hone. If it were, then picking the best hone would simply be a matter of picking the one with the optimal grit size. Instead, there is somehow a character to that grit that impacts the way the hone performs. Unfortunately, I think it's like pornography--you'll know it when you see it, or in the case of hones, when you feel it. (Then again, that would bring pornography to a whole new level!)

A barber hone like the Swaty provides a "perfect" blend of speed and smoothness in cutting the razor's steel. It provides an adequately smooth edge and it does it quickly. That's what makes it great for touch ups. Finer finishing hones might not cut enough to be adequate for touch ups. You can buy a Swaty for $35. You can buy an Escher for around $200 (more or less). You can buy a Nakayama for $350 (or more). The edge off most Nakayamas is going to be better than the edge off of a Swaty.

It ain't 10 times better.

Originally Posted by Utopian

No, it's completely a matter of degrees. Keep in mind that you CAN shave off of a Norton 8K, which is considered to be a polishing hone. The edge that most people are after is better than that though. The reason that most of the hone fascination is in the upper end of the grit spectrum is that is where all the subtle tweaking is done. There are great differences in 1K hones as well but who cares? They just prep the edge for the cool stuff later in the honing progression.

You CAN use some barber hones, like Swatys, as finishing hones after a Norton 8K, and it will improve the edge. An Escher will give a better edge but it will take more strokes to do it. The actual grit size, even if it accurately can be determined, is not the end all be all of what makes a great hone. If it were, then picking the best hone would simply be a matter of picking the one with the optimal grit size. Instead, there is somehow a character to that grit that impacts the way the hone performs. Unfortunately, I think it's like pornography--you'll know it when you see it, or in the case of hones, when you feel it. (Then again, that would bring pornography to a whole new level!)

A barber hone like the Swaty provides a "perfect" blend of speed and smoothness in cutting the razor's steel. It provides an adequately smooth edge and it does it quickly. That's what makes it great for touch ups. Finer finishing hones might not cut enough to be adequate for touch ups. You can buy a Swaty for $35. You can buy an Escher for around $200 (more or less). You can buy a Nakayama for $350 (or more). The edge off most Nakayamas is going to be better than the edge off of a Swaty.

It ain't 10 times better.

Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions. I think maybe I'm mistakenly placing the barber hone into the "finisher" class, when in reality it's more of a "touching up" class? I sort of break down the classes of hones in my head as: bevel setter, sharpener, polisher, finisher. IMO, I think I have one (or more) from each of these categories, but I was trying to place where the barber hone might fit into these, and then evaluate whether or not I already had a "better" stone from that category such that I really would never use the barber hone. But maybe I need to add another category called "quick touchups" and mostly only barber hones fit in here (but other category hones might be able to also do the job, just not as efficiently)?

That is, is a barber hone pretty much THE standard for "touching up" a razor, but otherwise it's really not used in the honing progression? It's simply used for "touching up" because it's very fast, and then you would normally follow it up with your favorite finisher (if available, but not necessary)? Is this kind of the barber hone's role these days?

Or am I REALLY breaking this down much too far and overthinking it, lol.

Good Point, I've been kicking around the idea of the Japanese Naturals and Escher. They are pricey, beside being extinct, Are they worth the investment. When I get one, will I be overwhelmed and say, "Oh my God, Where have you been all my life" Will the Escher or Nakayama give me the best edge money can buy. I've been happy with my Coti's, BBW's, Nortons, C12k, Naniwa's, DMT's, Barber Hones, etc..So, I do have HAD.
I've been debating on pulling the trigger on this Escher, it's 450 bucks. I'm not sure that it's worth it to me for a finisher? What do you guys think.

PJ, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, along the same lines here buddy.....

Originally Posted by zib

Good Point, I've been kicking around the idea of the Japanese Naturals and Escher. They are pricey, beside being extinct, Are they worth the investment. When I get one, will I be overwhelmed and say, "Oh my God, Where have you been all my life" Will the Escher or Nakayama give me the best edge money can buy. I've been happy with my Coti's, BBW's, Nortons, C12k, Naniwa's, DMT's, Barber Hones, etc..So, I do have HAD.
I've been debating on pulling the trigger on this Escher, it's 450 bucks. I'm not sure that it's worth it to me for a finisher? What do you guys think.

PJ, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, along the same lines here buddy.....

$450 is pretty damn expensive, and you are getting into the realm of diminishing returns.

I bet that an expertly honed razor on a coti, Nakayama, Escher et al. would all feel identical shave-wise on identical razors. Once you figure out how to squeeze the maximum potential from a good finisher, you plateu.

That's not the point with the HAD though... it's all about the process: the feel of the hone, the history, the smell, size, colors etc.

It's a gourmet's (and sometimes gourmand) perspective really.

No problem zib... FWIW, I'm really really digging my vintage thuringian quite a bit. I don't think I've yet used it to it's full potential, but I like the edges off of it quite a bit better than the coticule alone or the chinese 12k. It's also way more fun to use. It's much softer and smoother feeling than the coticule or chinese 12k, which both feel hard and scratchy to use. I also really like the size of it a lot. At 6x1, it feels perfect in my hand for finishing. The only size I could imagine liking better for a finisher (at this point in my honing journey) might be 6x1.5 - just a tad wider. But really, I'd have to try and compare to see for sure. I might still prefer the 6x1 after trying, but for now, this is just right (for me)

Originally Posted by pjrage

Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions. I think maybe I'm mistakenly placing the barber hone into the "finisher" class, when in reality it's more of a "touching up" class? I sort of break down the classes of hones in my head as: bevel setter, sharpener, polisher, finisher. IMO, I think I have one (or more) from each of these categories, but I was trying to place where the barber hone might fit into these, and then evaluate whether or not I already had a "better" stone from that category such that I really would never use the barber hone. But maybe I need to add another category called "quick touchups" and mostly only barber hones fit in here (but other category hones might be able to also do the job, just not as efficiently)?

That is, is a barber hone pretty much THE standard for "touching up" a razor, but otherwise it's really not used in the honing progression? It's simply used for "touching up" because it's very fast, and then you would normally follow it up with your favorite finisher (if available, but not necessary)? Is this kind of the barber hone's role these days?

Or am I REALLY breaking this down much too far and overthinking it, lol.

No, you need to think about it more!

As I wrote before, you CAN use a barber hone, such as a Swaty, as a finisher. It will polish beyond the level of a Norton 8K, so it can certainly be classified as both a "finisher" and as a touch up hone. Personally, I don't make a distinction between "polisher" and "finisher." Polishers finish and finishers polish. It's likely that you consider a Norton 8K as a polisher and yet don't consider that to be finished but that still remains a matter of degree of polish. An Escher could be considered a finisher but if you follow it with a Nakayama does that mean the Escher is merely a polisher? I think the two terms are an arbitrary and unnecessary distinction.

There is not as much of a clear distinction of hone classes as you have in your head. A Norton 4k is a sharpener, but if you don't have anything more coarse, then it's also your bevel setter. I once set a bevel and fully honed a razor to completion with just a Swaty. It took a few hours and and I don't recommend it but the point is that lots of hones can be used in a variety of ways.

I hope I have not confused matters for you. It is likely that any polisher/finisher can be used as a touch up hone, but some of them would be pretty slow at it. It is also going to depend upon how far you have let the edge go before doing the touch up. I have read on this forum a few times that it is easier to KEEP a razor sharp with frequent touch ups than it is to re-sharpen a razor that you have let go too long.

The reason that a barbers hone like a Swaty can serve as a touch up hone is that it is able to bring the edge to a state in which the razor provides a comfortable shave. If it can do that, then it certainly can be considered adequate as a finishing stone as well.

The razors in my locker that have only been maintained with barbers hones could easily be brought home, where I could touch them up with several combinations of hones costing hundreds of dollars. The edges on those razors would all definitely be better than they currently are. I choose not to do that with those particular razors because I appreciate the SIMPLICITY of maintaining them the way it was done a hundred years ago, with a single barbers hone.

The barbers hone is not "THE standard" for touch ups. You could do touch ups with a Norton combo stone, or a Chinese hone, or both, or a coticule, or whatever hones you've got. Any set of hones that got your razor sharp can be used to keep your razor sharp. You don't need a dedicated touch up stone.

They just happen to be fun to play with!

Originally Posted by Utopian

No, you need to think about it more!

As I wrote before, you CAN use a barber hone, such as a Swaty, as a finisher. It will polish beyond the level of a Norton 8K, so it can certainly be classified as both a "finisher" and as a touch up hone. Personally, I don't make a distinction between "polisher" and "finisher." Polishers finish and finishers polish. It's likely that you consider a Norton 8K as a polisher and yet don't consider that to be finished but that still remains a matter of degree of polish. An Escher could be considered a finisher but if you follow it with a Nakayama does that mean the Escher is merely a polisher? I think the two terms are an arbitrary and unnecessary distinction.

There is not as much of a clear distinction of hone classes as you have in your head. A Norton 4k is a sharpener, but if you don't have anything more coarse, then it's also your bevel setter. I once set a bevel and fully honed a razor to completion with just a Swaty. It took a few hours and and I don't recommend it but the point is that lots of hones can be used in a variety of ways.

I hope I have not confused matters for you. It is likely that any polisher/finisher can be used as a touch up hone, but some of them would be pretty slow at it. It is also going to depend upon how far you have let the edge go before doing the touch up. I have read on this forum a few times that it is easier to KEEP a razor sharp with frequent touch ups than it is to re-sharpen a razor that you have let go too long.

The reason that a barbers hone like a Swaty can serve as a touch up hone is that it is able to bring the edge to a state in which the razor provides a comfortable shave. If it can do that, then it certainly can be considered adequate as a finishing stone as well.

The razors in my locker that have only been maintained with barbers hones could easily be brought home, where I could touch them up with several combinations of hones costing hundreds of dollars. The edges on those razors would all definitely be better than they currently are. I choose not to do that with those particular razors because I appreciate the SIMPLICITY of maintaining them the way it was done a hundred years ago, with a single barbers hone.

The barbers hone is not "THE standard" for touch ups. You could do touch ups with a Norton combo stone, or a Chinese hone, or both, or a coticule, or whatever hones you've got. Any set of hones that got your razor sharp can be used to keep your razor sharp. You don't need a dedicated touch up stone.

They just happen to be fun to play with!

Ok, I think I've got a good understanding now! Thanks for being patient with me

Just for clarification, the classes as I have them in my head are more of a "is best used as." Yes, the norton 4k I consider a "sharpener" but yes it could set the bevel as well. But, it seems best used as a sharpener, and something like the dmt 1200 is best used as a bevel setter. And yes, I consider the norton 8k to be a polisher, but both an escher and nakayama as finishers. I define, in my head, polisher as "can polish to a shavable edge" and finisher as "can improve upon a polished edge to provide a final finish or polish." I guess the finisher class has the most room for interpreation as there are stones that are estimated at 12k and others at 30k. But they all provide that "final finish" so I guess I just lump em together. It probably is an unnecessary distinction, but really so are the classes in the first place really. Either way, it just seems weird to lump a nakayama with a norton 8k

FWIW (and I don't even have hones yet) I am buying a set or Nortons, a Swaty, and a Thuringen (maybe a Nakayama) my reasoning went along the lines of, I won't be in the high grits that much so I'll get something cheap, and since I'm gonna touch up more and finishing is far more important, I'll spend money there. What I plan on doing, whether it works or not, is going through once in a while or on new razors through the whole process, then trying to keep that edge as long as possible, buy doing a few lap son the swaty, then going to the thuringen for a few laps to add some on top of that. The fast cutting, hard Swaty won't need lapping as often as the Norton, and will take less time. That's my .02.