Thread: Help with Naniwa set up

Originally Posted by khaos

off topic a bit... why do you have a 12k nani AND 16k Shapton when they are approx. the same?

I have to ask, as I've been deciding between these two stones for a while now, but is the above statement true? If so, then how is a 12k hone comparable to a 16k? Seems like quite a gap to be calling them similar.

Because different people have different ways of measuring the grit. Grit is not a unit. If it said micron, that is a unit and is definite.
Shapton blatantly advertises that their 8k grit is 1.84 micron. Its printed right on their hone. On Norton's website they claim their 8k grit is 3 micron. I confirmed that Naniwa uses the new JIS standard (JIS is Japanese Industrial Standards, like America's ANSI or Europes FEPA) which describes 8k as 1.2 micron. The ANSI and FEPA scales don't even go that high, they both end around 2000 (I think FEPA actually ends at F2000, which is different from FEPA's P2000 which is coarser, but I recall seeing a few two thousands something ANSI grits). 1 micron is defined as 1/1000,000 of a meter, which is a standardised unit. Grit depends on the country. Same way as an Imperial/British gallon is more than a US gallon, and Imperial/British mile longer than a US mile, a Metric ton more than a US ton, a degree Fahrenheit less than a degree Celsius/Kelvin (the scales share teh same unit, just different benchmarks). In England they won't say Imperial gallons. They'll just say gallons. In the US they won't say US gallons. You wouldn't say I filled my tank with 10 US standard gallons of gas. Just gallons. Same way on hones. Wusthof's hones read 800 1200 1500 2000 I believe, but in FEPA, so in JIS thats closer to 1k, 2.5k, 4k, 8k. If I were in Germany and said it were ninety degrees they'd think I was raving mad cus they use degrees Celsius, where 90 is close to boiling. If I specifiy 90 deg F, then its all clear.

Wow, a bit more in-depth answer than I thought I'd get, but good to know.

Anyone know what the micron rating of the Naniwa 12k k is (as compared to the .92 of the Shapton 16)?

I'll look and see if I can find an official JIS rating. I doubt it though. 99.9999% of people don't need sub micron sandpaper lol. Extrapolating the trends they look to be quite similar.

Khaos,

I think you have to decide how you will use either stone. I'm thinking this:

The 3K can still be used to touch up an edge without removing as much metal as dropping down to the 1K.

After using the 1K though, the 5K will remove less metal than the 3K in a progression to 8K.

So, if you want to use it as a touch up, the 3K might be better, but if you wanted to get to 8K faster, the 5K might be better.

I'm also still considering the Shapton 1k 4k 8k which would be a lot easier. I just have to think about the Nani's though. And it turns out that a Nani 5k is actually close in micron size to a Shapton 8k and I think a Norton 8k. I don't have the chart on my laptop but its on SRP somewhere. which makes life even harder. Basically people have found (and the micron sizes of the different grits support it) that pyramiding nani 3k/5k is like a norton 4k/8k. Sigh.

Originally Posted by khaos

I'm also still considering the Shapton 1k 4k 8k which would be a lot easier. I just have to think about the Nani's though. And it turns out that a Nani 5k is actually close in micron size to a Shapton 8k and I think a Norton 8k. I don't have the chart on my laptop but its on SRP somewhere. which makes life even harder. Basically people have found (and the micron sizes of the different grits support it) that pyramiding nani 3k/5k is like a norton 4k/8k. Sigh.

Karl, at first glance that is the impression I got too but not quite. First of all if Smokintbird's grit chart is accurate the Shapton pro and glass are the same in microns as the Naniwa and that puts a Naniwa 3/5 in the same ballpark as a Norton 4/8 but not exactly. IOW if you look at the microns on the right in the chart rather than where the stones are listed in the text the grits are close but not naniwa 3k = norton 4k.

IMO in honing it appears to be better to do the pyramid with a 2 or a 3k and a 5k if you're using the Japanese hones for the same result, or close to it if you are using the Nortons.

When I first got the Shapton pros I did pyramids with the 5/8 and it seemed like I wasn't getting anywhere. I eventually was able to get some results but it took a lot of time. I found myself going to the Norton 4/8 most of the time and the Shap pro 15 for icing on the cake.

Yesterday my Naniwas arrived and I lapped a 1k and set a bevel then a 3/5k and did 1 aggressive and 1 conservative pyramid and shaved. I got the same shave as I would have if I had used the Norton 4/8.

I could have done the same thing with my Shapton pros using a 2/5 (they don't make a 3k) but I sent all of my Shapton pros to a friend who wanted to try them out and I won't have them back for a week or two. I will give it a go with the 2/5 when I get them back but I think I like the Naniwa better.

While it may be jumping the gun to recommend the Naniwa set after honing 1 razor I have to say that I love the feel of these stones. As I have read they have a really nice feel when the blade is on the hone and they seem to be very efficient cutters.

On the one HC blade, a vintage 8/8 Henckles they didn't load up and cut fast. The thing is I really liked the feel. I will take that same razor today and give it one more conservative pyramid.

Then I will go to the 8k and do some polishing and shave again. I will do the 10 and 12k tomorrow and shave with it yet again and I will also do the 3/5 pyramids on a few others. I think I am on to something here but it requires further testing.

Anyway, it seems like the Naniwas may have shot the Shaptons out of the saddle for me and the Nortons too.

You still have no hones?
How can you live?

Nanis, nanis, nanis!!!!

When you are as poor as me, you find a way. Right now I am just incredibly patient with my Swaty. I have a razor and some other stuff in the classifieds. I have a 2-line Swaty pending sale. If I can come up with $140ish I'll be golden. I've commited to buying a strop from someone ($40) and as soon as that is done I will probably be grabbing the 3k and 5k (90 some) from SRD. I can't afford to spend from my paycheck as what little is left after car insurance, bills etc. gets saved for buying my ****ing textbooks. Thats how lol. The only exception is deals I won't get again, then I dip into my savings and pray I still have enough for books.

Oh dear!
I understand! We need a student hone aid fund!