Thread: My Secret Shame

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I have a few recommendations.

I recommend, practice setting your bevels. This is one reason why a finishing hone won't give the desired results. A Japanese natural hone does not have any magic abilities about it. If the initial honing processes aren't done correctly, then the Japanese natural is not going to just come along and make it all better.

All of the razors I am discussing gave fine shaves off of the 8K. They lost keeness on the Nakayama. I checked this carefully. I am fully aware the the greatest work in honing is in setting the bevel, adn I am being extremely careful about checking at every step of the way.


While I fully undersdtand the need to be careful of my honing, and never assume I have mastered any step, I would not post about problems with the nakayama if I was not sure that was where the problem lay. It may be in my technique with the stone, or it may be a quirk in the stone, but I am sure that these razors had fine bevels and were shaving well before they got to the final polish.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I recommend you lap all those scratches out of the hone that are shown in the last picture in the set above. They actually look more like gouges, and that's probably exactly what they are, after seeing how you use your slurry stone.

I have done so. Like I said, those pics were of the hone BEFORE I lapped it...in fact, that is the condition of the stone when I first got it.

The first thing I did was lap it up to 2K, and I did so again recently just to make sure. Again, I started at 400 grit and worked my way up to 2K w&d sandpaper on a polished slab of granite. I haven't noticed any changes in the resulting edges, though.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I recommend you lap your slurry stone too, coz it's probably in a bad shape ATM. After you get it cleaned up, then nice and flat again, I recommend you get a saw or use the edge of your diamond hone and cut a + into the slurry stone, this will prevent it from sticking to the hone. Think of those suction cup things, when theres no air, they slick like sh!t to a blanket, but once there's a bit of air in there, it comes off immediately. Same applies to the slurry stone.

This I have not tried, though Kawaguchi did gouge a pattern into it with an awl the last time I took it to him for practice.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Mostly as I said in my post above, I recommend you concentrate on learning to set a bevel and hone properly, before worrying about the prize at the end, coz it's most likely a distraction for you.

Again though, this is only based on observation of some of your posts and your video.

Thanks for some more concrete advice. I find it helpful to examine things closely, and this is a good way to focus my attention more carefully.

Jim,

I found that I didn't like the edges off of my Maruichi either, EXCEPT for the Le Canadien. Again a very hard steel (the new TI carbonsong). The hone is currently on loan so I cannot check it on my current lineup but, the only 'likable' edge off of it was the Le Canadien, and that was working up from a #5000 synthetic. I probably did about 300+ strokes on it (It is a very small hone) heavy slurry to start and ending with about a hundred on clean water where I was almost floating the razor over the surface at the end (rinsing and rubbing the honing surface under a tap of running water ever 20 laps, the razor too). The edge was bar none the most comfortable I had felt, but the same was not true on my other 'softer' razors. Those ones liked the lapping film and CroOx. Now I use a coticule and Cro Ox for almost all of my razors. It seems an all around solution that will work on all of my razors. The edge is consistent and I like it. I wouldn't mind getting another Japanese natural though. One step at a time. No rush...No rush.

Seth, thank you! It's good to learn I'm not alone...

I never use slurry any more on the Asagi. BTW Jim, what happens if you take one of the sub-standard Nakayama-honed edges and strop the beejeebers out of it?

The reason I ask is that for the first few weeks after I got my stone, I used slurry and was finding the edges off the hone were not as sharp as I had hoped, for some razors. A good stropping got them to a nice place.

As I said, now I do not use any slurry at all, and just a very (very) fine layer of water. I hone on the Asagi basically until the water evaporates, and get superb edges, IMO.

James.

My technique is probably worthless (not too developed, not much experience vs. Old School) but I'll just post what I do because it helps me.

I hone by dipping my fingers in a bowl of water then spreading it on the hone- so very little water, basically dry. This started out as being less messy, but it turns out I was getting pretty good edges using it dry (but ran into swarf problems) so I use a little water now.

I "pyramid" stropping and honing. Dunno if that has any sense behind it but its mostly a result of like what Jimbo said- honed edges still need a good stropping- so I would hone, strop, test a hair on my arm. Hone, strop, test, etc. I feel like I'm getting better results than when I just honed and tested, then stropped.

Strop the bejeezus out of it. This I found by accident. I was practicing my stropping and I grabbed a razor that has a nice tang, but as a coincidence wasn't quite there hone wise and did, oh, 100 laps whenever I had free time (2-3 times daily) and honestly after the first or second 100 lap sessions, it fell into line. (I know stropping that much is bad, I rehoned it. I was practicing my stropping after all)

My $.02 but in straight razor exchange rate thats more like .000000002 Old School cents lol. YMMV

For anyone who cares for a slurry on their Nakayama, a quick lapping on the DMT C will give you a sufficient slurry as it will for some other hones. On the other hand, as mentioned above and on another thread, just a few drops of water on a Nakayama will give you a nice edge. I find the few drops of water to suit me best as opposed to a slurry.

As a result of the above posts, I will begin noting where my razors were manufactured. I know that Sheffield steel seems to a softer steel and American and German steel runs about 63 on the Rockwell C.
I'm not sure about Swedish but you all seem to think it's harder than average.

I am told that files are on average about 65 or 66 on the C scale. That explains why we can file spines, no?

As always, we learn something from almost all posts..........

Jerry
~~~

OK, I think things are getting confused, so please let me clarify and reiterate the points from my OP:

1. I have honed several razors on this hone, around a dozen or so, and some of those repeatedly. All of them had the same problem: they were shaving sharp before they were polished on the Nakayama, but not after. That means I SHAVED with all of them before I tried them on the Nakayama, and they shaved fine. Afterward, they were dull.

2. ONE razor I honed on this stone turned out great. It was a very, very difficult razor to hone. It was very hard steel, that was resistant to hones, and Glen's advice was to use slurry on a 4K, which is what he does with hard Swedish steel.

3. The razors that my barber honed on this stone are ALL (as far as I can tell) Swedish steel. They all shave great. He has not honed any of my razors on this hone. Only his own.

4. My idea was, if I had success on this one razor, but no others, why would that be? I saw a pattern in the steel of the razors and asked about the possibility. I am NOT blaming the hone, I am asking "Is this idea crazy or not?" I know I am still new to honing, but I have tried a great many different techniques to use this hone and all of them had THE SAME result. Not different kinds of failure, the same result: dull edges.

So either this hone needs to be used differently for softer steels and harder steels, or my technique is crap except for one random razor. Both, to me, seem entirely possible...but if it's my technique, WHAT is it? Too much pressure? Too many laps? Uneven strokes? Why could I get the razors shaving sharp on the lower grit stones, but dull them on this one? Why did the razors I honed at the same time, some of them AFTER my one success, all get dull in exactly the same way?

These are my points. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with my hone, I'm trying to figure out how to use it right.

Quick question about slurry- I was under the impression that the nice thing about japanese stones is the particles break down, so a hone after lapping will be say, "10k", then move to "30k+" with use. Surely a slurry will negate this effect? And in doing so, possibly detract from the "30k+" edge these stones are famous for?

Originally Posted by JimR

So either this hone needs to be used differently for softer steels and harder steels, or my technique is crap except for one random razor. Both, to me, seem entirely possible...but if it's my technique, WHAT is it? Too much pressure? Too many laps? Uneven strokes? Why could I get the razors shaving sharp on the lower grit stones, but dull them on this one? Why did the razors I honed at the same time, some of them AFTER my one success, all get dull in exactly the same way?

These are my points. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with my hone, I'm trying to figure out how to use it right.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...r-musings.html

Lol a while back I proposed that at the microscopic level maybe some hones just work very well with some steels. The idea never amounted to much, but now that we have this..... lol.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

So, see what your barber can do, if he can get them shave ready, then you know the problem is neither the steel nor the hone.

+1

I was thinking the same thing.