Thread: My Secret Shame

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I'm afraid I'd be too biased. I am quite confident after reading many of Jim's honing posts, and seeing his honing video, that there is nothing wrong with the stone. Not to mention the fact a barber used it for decades, and that he honed some razors which Jim got excellent shaves from. To try blame the hone or steel types is absurd, and also somewhat of an insult to the barber, coz in a way, it's saying that the barber and his customers have no idea what a truly shave ready razor is.

I think deep down, Jim really does know it is not the hone or steel type, otherwise he would have taken it to the barber, at the earliest convenience after admitting that was the best idea he had heard.

High quality Japanese natural hones DO NOT dull edges, it's that simple.

Indeed, I agree that you would be too biased.

I'm blaming neither the steel nor the hone. I have said from the beginning that I know there is nothing wrong with the hone. I am trying to learn to use this stone--if I wasn't, I would have given up already. I want to know why this stone and I are not getting along. I want to UNDERSTAND it. Of course my technique needs to improve, but HOW? Is it pressure? Number of passes? What's the best way to approach this stone?

My idea that perhaps the hone deals differently with different steel was simply that, an IDEA. I was asking about the possibility. Because I have tried many many times with this hone, changing small variables, becoming more and more conscious of my technique, and I keep getting the same results. Results that I do not get off of other hones.

I didn't get these results from the freaking Chinese hone, nor from the Shapton 12K I had, nor from the Naniwa 8K. I got good shaving edges form them. Not perfect, but GOOD. And from this hone, I don't. It's as simple as that.

And as for the earliest convenience, that would be tomorrow. Which I'm doing. So I'd appreciate you not reading anything into that.

Don't psychoanalyze me. Don't "sense" me. Don't imply I'm trying to hide my own failures. I own my frailties and my weaknesses, and I try to overcome them. If you'd like to help me, then please do so. Otherwise, kindly keep your psychoanalysis to yourself.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

25 laps really isn't much.

It's after honing. No one gives full laps after honing.

So this edge is irrelevant to your test since you used a paste.

White paste is non abrasive

2 ways to explain that. 1) You have said your shaves off an 8k are great, and some people say the C12 is closer to 8k IIRC. 2) Your honing is inconsistant.

AFTER the Nakayama? What...?

Perhaps you can explain how the Dovo has gone from one sentence, being really really good, to the next sentence, being not up to par? That there sounds extremely strange. Either it shaves good or it don't, which is it?

It shaves good. I shouldn't have said "not up to par", as I meant "Not yet where I want it to be, but pretty good."

Originally Posted by JimR

It shaves good. I shouldn't have said "not up to par", as I meant "Not yet where I want it to be, but pretty good."

Two things- first, (dunno why it didn't quote) but I find that after honing more laps on the strop=better. I know I'm not completely alone in this, but I don't know if its a majority or a minority. Try that maybe?

Also- I doubt its an issue because the stone is such a high grit- but after 100 laps maybe a wire edge formed? Did you throw a couple back-hones in there to correct for this?

(Side note- with regards to white paste, why bother using it if its non abrassive? is it a leather conditioner?)

Originally Posted by khaos

(Side note- with regards to white paste, why bother using it if its non abrassive? is it a leather conditioner?)

Dovo white paste is a chalk-based paste for the linen side of the strop, and it's abrasive. It's very mild, mild enough to be used on your daily strop, and is intended for that role, but it is an abrasive nonetheless. Seraphim posted some 500x photos a day or two ago (using a seriously good optical microscope, none of this USB scope stuff) of an edge honed on 1 micron diamond, taken pre and post stropping on dovo white paste, and you can see how it has smoothed out some of the 1 micron scratches.

ok start with torrey and tape the back with 1 layer of the tape and set the bevel.

Jim,

The barber looks at you like an apprentice, is that correct?

In that case, I have a little story for you...

My grandfather was a carpenter. When he started out as an apprentice, in the early 1930's, his mentor gave him a jack plane and told him to flat out a warped tabletop. What he didn't tell him, was that the plane had all kinds of defects which made it completely unsuitable for decent planing.
For 4 days, my granddad tried flattening that tabletop. He sharpened the blade numerous times, lapped the crooked sole of the tool, adjusted the wedge that held the blade, over and over again. Each day, the boss came in and had some encouraging words of advice, that kept him going.
At the end of the first week, the boss approached my grandfather, and without speaking a word, he took the plane out of his hands and gave him a brand new and well tuned Stanley n°5 (I know the exact model, because that same plane is still in use today in his grandson's wood shop). An hour later that tabletop was a flush as can be.
The boss praised him and asked if he would have been able to do it, if he was given the Stanley right away.

Today, I have all the right tools in perfect condition, but I still struggle at times when I need to hand plane a table top.

Just a story...

Keep going Jim, you're doing fine.

Bart.

Welll...Things have gotten a bit complicated since last time.

First, last night I was browsing my blog, looking at the posts where I first got this hone and the razors with it. I found something I had TOTALLY forgotten:
From this post (scroll down toward the bottom, after the last picture):

It was shaveable when I got it, but it pulled a bit--it had an edge that I think had been maintained, but not really honed, for a very long time. It pulled a bit, but cut well.

On this one, I went to the conservative pyramid, using the King 4k and Naniwa 8K, then the usual finish.

Results? Exquisite. Superb. Freaking DREAMY. As smooth and sharp an edge as you could ask for, and a damn fine morning for me.

So the edge that I have been shaving with on the kawaguchi razors was one that was retouched by an 8K/4K pyramid. Which is not exactly good proof of the finish off this particular hone. I was basing some of my assumptions on a false memory...never a good practice. So there goes a lot of my theory...

Second, I went to the barber today.
I showed him the Dovo and the Genco. Of course he did not approve them...

The DOVO he said I was honing tired, and my strokes were uneven (I had honed it last night around 11pm...) and the Genco he said I was honing irritated....which...scares me a little. How does he know that? HOW COULD HE POSSIBLY KNOW THAT!!??!

Anyway, I got out a little Torrey that I had honed up to 8K--it was smooth and a nice shaver, adn asked if he would hone it. He did, and I took video (it's uploading from my phone now...it's taking FOREVER, but I'll post a link when it's done.) He had some tips about slurry (make it THICK) and time) do it a long time to give the slurry time to break down).

He also said the Torrey was a problem because the tip was curved. He likes straight edges, so the hint of a smile is not something he approves of. He told me that it would take about an hour to hone out that touch of smile at the tip, but I should still do it. He said the edge as he left it should shave fine, and when I asked about using the hone without slurry he said no, no. He tried it, and didn't like the edge--said it was too shiny.

I'll try this Torrey tonight. He said that apart form the tip, the cutting edge was good...so we'll see.

However...I explained about my problems with getting good shaves, and he said a couple of things about how I was trying hard, and that I should use thicker slurry, and that I needed to spend more time on it, but in smaller amounts--ten minutes at a time. AND THEN...

He brought out the other hone. The big one that he said I could have if I honed three razors well. And he said this one would work better for my razors. And he gave it to me.

What should I think about this? Is it like Bart said, he was checking to see how I would go trying to use the wrong tool for the job? Or did he just want to see if I was going to give up? Or did he just take pity on me?

Anyway, I'm still keeping at this hone...But that big one needs some attention, like serious lapping. And lots of pictures.

When he notes you honing "irritated", I bet he is looking at the bevel and seeing more polish behind the edge then on the edge itself... if that makes sense. Too much pressure and it is digging in or flexing out of the way (I can't decide which is more probable yet).

I have noticed the same thing with light slurry on my japanese natural, it seems to be super finicky about pressure and stroke evenness when finishing.

Just a guess.

Ok, so, here's what's happening. I'm following Kawaguchi--I'm using heavy slurry, with circular strokes, and learning to do it the way it's supposed to be done.

If it takes an hour, or a day, or a week to hone a razor right, that's what I'm going to do...just hone.

I got way too uptight about this, way too worried about other people's experiences and I forgot to just hone.

So...yeah. That's what I'm going to do.

Excellent. You are now tapping into your inner honemeister.