Thread: Naniwa 12K after a Coticule, to improve edges that are good but not great?

Quick comment from the FNG:

I am a new to honing. I have a few razors most of which have been honed by a professional. I have a few that I hone myself trying to learn the techniques you folks speak about (thanks by the way). My issue is that until I learn to set a bevel and hone like an advanced novice, I wanted to be able to "refresh" the edge on a razor which had the bevel set by a pro. I have a few barber hones but they did not seem to work well. From what I learned they may be about 8-10K or so. I have a Coti which I've used but it seems to be something that one lends itself to a more experienced honer.
Step in the Naniwa 12K. I read a ton of threads and decided that this may be what I need to keep my razors at the same level when they were sent to me from the pro. Well, it worked. I can take a razor that started to pull, run it over the 12K until it seems to be getting "sucked" onto the face of the hone, 5-10 Laps on a paddle strop with CroX and then leather strop and the edge is wonderful.

I am still learning to set a bevel as is evinced by the lack of hair on my right arm and left upper thigh. I do really like the edge I can get from a razor with a properly set bevel and a little work with the 12K ans such.

I hope this makes sense. I also say thank you for all the information you folks provide to folks like me.

Regards,

Not signed

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I realize many of you think it is true but it isn't about speed, it is about perfection...

Consistency is the truth, but I think you missed a small bit in there

Building consistency comes from the knowledge of which stone works BEST, not fastest, with each razor... I only wish it were that easy to go to the fastest most consistent system..

Keep in mind when you are talking pro honing you now might just learn the truth about how well you actually hone, not what you think to be the truth, but what somebody else tells you is the truth...
The acid test for anybody who hones is to charge a complete stranger across an ocean who paid more for the shipping then for the honing on his Full custom razor and tell him you did it the fastest way possible and it is a perfectly adequate job... just don't try that too often

You better know that when you pick the hones/stones to do the job that you picked the ones that are going to give the smoothest most comfortable shave possible on his razor...

And BTW that choice of stones could be different for each person and their technique, hence right back to where I joined this conversation "There is no best hone"

And to tie it totally back to the OP a Naniwa 12k may very well improve the keenness of your Coticule edge and that might be a viable system for you to use.. I might find that the best edge on that razor comes from a Norton 8k then my Coticule, or perhaps just my Coticule using the "One Hone System" after a bevel set, or heaven forbid that soulless Naniwa 12k might just be the best edge for that razor without the Coticule, only trying it all will tell you the truth...

I think the reason we may have missed that point is because of statements like this from... just this morning:

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Honestly take what us "Professional Honer's" say with a huge grain of salt, you don't need a $90 Chosera 1k unless you are honing a lot of razors, we use them mostly because of the speed at which they perform...

We're fortunate that you're here to correct our ignorance considering you know every razor/hone combination. Thanks for all you do

Way to take two totally unrelated threads with two totally different topics and try and combine them Paul...
Trying to save a guy money in one that he needs not spend, and discussing the finer points of the upper end of this hobby... Yeah not exactly the same ...Other than I am just trying to help people in both..

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...el-setter.html

I have the very nice luxury of only needing to please one person with my honing and that is me. Am I a tough judge? I tend to think so.
So maybe that means I only think I know the truth.
If someone says that the best edge depends on a.) the technique; b.) the hone(s); and c.) the razor, then I think I'm in a pretty good position to judge because I alone am in possession of all three.

As a person who hones only for himself (and an occasional buddy for a beer or two) am I concerned with 'the perfect edge?' meh, kinda, maybe to some extent. Not really though, because if it requires what I keep reading about, there's no way I can afford it!

Let the guy who mails his razors to the contract honer be satisfied that he has the perfect edge. He pays for that assurance and I'm glad there are people who can offer that to him. It's a great transaction!

I think the disagreement comes when joe blow offers a solution or two that has worked for him personally. Sure, I can agree that his opinion isn’t gospel--I have no doubt that it doesn’t apply across the board to every single razor, nobody is disputing that. Maybe it doesn't give him the "perfect edge." But, in my opinion, if it works for one guy on one razor, then it’s a valuable addition to the forum, period. It seems to me that sometimes people have a tendency to imply that joe blow’s solution actually hasn’t worked for joe blow, he’s just ignorant. Or he's dishonest. Or they question his logic. Or they warn others that it won’t work for them. I don’t get this! We’re not here to find one solution--it’s been mentioned in this very forum that there isn’t one solution! So then what’s the harm in providing additional solutions!?

If Gary (or anyone else) says method X worked for him in reaching a great shaving edge, why can’t we just think: “neat, that’s interesting, maybe I’ll try that” or “no, that’s not for me.” I guess I just don’t get why people have to hop in all the time and go on the record as disagreeing with someone. Could be an internet thing.

If the worry is that newbies will get overloaded with misinformation and we need to make it clear to them what’s right and wrong I would argue first that we’re not their moms, and second, that there is no right and wrong.

Originally Posted by Jeltz

I was wondering if a 12K Naniwa superstone is likely to improve the edge after a coti or whether I should just accept that some razors are better than others.

Yes it is likely; how likely, I do not know.

And it is true that some razors are better than others; whether you choose to accept that is up to you.

Attend a meet-up, try the hones and razors upon them, and receive enlightenment

Originally Posted by Jimbo7

I don’t get this! We’re not here to find one solution--it’s been mentioned in this very forum that there isn’t one solution! So then what’s the harm in providing additional solutions!?

You just answered your own question...

There is not one solution if there was then this would be a rather boring place... Anytime everyone agrees then there is no progress, if we all agreed on only one way to do things, then we would just have a mutual backslapping fourm...
I like the arguments myself they foster new ideas, it doesn't even matter if those ideas are hatched because you are bound and determined to prove somebody else wrong, it might make you go test it out...

The big argument going on now, is that Paul doesn't think that certain stones produce better edges on certain razors, and I do...
So the solution is to try it and see what you find, the problem is that it costs huge money and time to do the testing..

Lee/Hoglahoo just summed up the Original question of the thread rather easily

Originally Posted by gssixgun

You just answered your own question...

There is not one solution if there was then this would be a rather boring place... Anytime everyone agrees then there is no progress, if we all agreed on only one way to do things, then we would just have a mutual backslapping fourm...
I like the arguments myself they foster new ideas, it doesn't even matter if those ideas are hatched because you are bound and determined to prove somebody else wrong, it might make you go test it out...

The big argument going on now, is that Paul doesn't think that certain stones produce better edges on certain razors, and I do...
So the solution is to try it and see what you find, the problem is that it costs huge money and time to do the testing..

That's just it! Under a logic that success requires huge money and time, only those that have the money and the time to spend on honing (i.e. those that hone as a job) can possibly have the ability to find it! Everyone else should just pipe down and listen.

Of course I'm exaggerating, but you have to see where the frustration is coming from. I understand that people have varying levels of experience. But when you set the bar at a level that excludes so many people from having worthwhile opinions, you're going to get some push back from those people.

No no don't confuse success and a shave ready edge, with the stupidity that Paul and I are arguing about.
This thread moved into the higher levels of honing and went way past where the OP started it at, again if we all agreed this would not have happened and Lee's post would have been all that was needed, but because we started to "discuss" finer points, now we have a continuing thread...

Is that good or bad ????

The OP's question has been answered = Good
More discussion on what we love = Good

I am not calling Paul stupid just the levels of honing that we are arguing about are stupid because they are of no consequence to a good shave , but to some of us this is a passion and these "discussions" make us think ...

Go back through and re-read Sham's posts and Gary's posts there is a ton of info in there that should spark people to try it... This all came from a bit more "Discussing" so yes I am rather happy we all don't agree, we all learn things..

If all stones were the same & produced the same edges you wouldn't have makers offering specific rocks for alloys, stainless, & carbon steels.
Now some may think the variety is a conspiracy to get our cash but try honing a 66HRC Rockwell Iwasaki on just any stones & watch your beard grow as you do it. The myth of matching the steel to the stone can soon become a reality.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

If all stones were the same & produced the same edges you wouldn't have makers offering specific rocks for alloys, stainless, & carbon steels.
Now some may think the variety is a conspiracy to get our cash but try honing a 66HRC Rockwell Iwasaki on just any stones & watch your beard grow as you do it. The myth of matching the steel to the stone can soon become a reality.

Very true, one of the reasons I'm unlikely to ever own a kamisori. Unless the Powerball comes through for me! (I'll save the out-of-towners a search and tell you its the big lottery around here)