Naniwa 12K after a Coticule, to improve edges that are good but not great?

**hi_bud_gl** · 08-09-2011, 06:52 PM

I don't know what to say.
Long Long ............time ago i had exact opinion as you have. May be a Little worse.
Took Me years and more then 150 coticules to test to change my mind a little.
You know what happen?
i find the coticule which will put the final edge to the blade and make me happy.
name was ?
Salm rock.
good luck find one and change your mind.Enjoy
this conversation never will end.

Originally Posted by riooso

I will preface this with saying that I know that a lot of us have different objectives when honing. I just have never understood how a "finisher" needs a couple of laps on the felt be it Diamond,CNB, or whatever. I have not run across a Coticule that I would consider giving a finished edge but I have not invested in world class Coticules and instead went to J-Nats. Coticules have a buttery feel and feedback that is certainly not bettered by many, if any, stones. I know that I am in the minority but, for me, to consider a razor to be properly honed I take it off the stone,strop it, and shave with it. I use CNB on felt for a touch-up after about 5 shaves. I just have never shaved with a Coticule honed razor that didn't need more attention.

Am I just a deluded babe in the woods?

Take Care,
Richard

**Jimbo7** · 08-09-2011, 07:33 PM

Is it a bad thing if the conversation doesn't end?

**gary haywood** · 08-09-2011, 07:57 PM

i think this has been an interesting post.

**Disburden** · 08-09-2011, 11:23 PM

Like Glen said, the razors matter more than anything. Some of my razors just never feel right after a coticule but others feel great, it is what it is. When the coticule doesn't work well its frustrating, especially with some of the exaggeration that goes on in other forums about how magical a coticule can be. I do find that when a razor doesn't like a coticule and then I use a vintage select coticule (like old rock) the edge is better but still other stones improve things more.

**Jimbo7** · 08-09-2011, 11:32 PM

As with many things (on this forum and elsewhere) it's often not so much the arrow as the Indian.

As much as we try to fight it, the biggest variable is always the guy who puts razor to rock.

**richmondesi** · 08-10-2011, 12:17 AM

I'm confused Nick... If a razor doesn't like a coticule, it may just like a "vintage" coticule? So, it does in fact like coticules a little bit, or do the "vintage" ones not count? I get frustrated when I can't get good results, though I tend not to blame tools despite the amount of "exaggeration" that goes on here and other forums.

It's the hands more than anything else. The idea that razors and stones pair in an appreciably different way so as to make one suck and the other awesome is exactly the wrong message to be spreading because it a) couldn't be more false and b) promotes the unnecessary acquisition of a bunch of hones when skill is what needs to be acquired...

Huh?

**Disburden** · 08-10-2011, 01:57 AM

Okay, I see what you mean by your question, I feel maybe I wasn't clear enough. I own some razors that do not finish well on a coticule, I do not use dilucot or unicot because, quite frankly I don't like those methods and I would rather use my Norton and finish with these stones, maybe this effects my outcome. When I say they "do not finish well" I mean for MY needs as the owner of the razor, not as a universal law.

When I hone a razor that doesn't like my coticule finish as much as say a Escher finish or a naniwa 12K or my Oozuku Asagi or my maruichi finish the edge ends up better with one of my vintage coticules that the newer ones I own, although the razor still ends up better with the other methods mentioned. I have not owned or tested a million Vintage coticules and new mined coticules to compared number, only a small sample I have in my house. I do not have a gigantic test range of coticules to go by. I do not own 1000 coticules, have tested 1000 coticules or have been to Ardennes to hand pick anything, I have owned maybe ten in three years. If you think I am wrong, that's fine, this is about our opinions. That being said the razors I own that like my coticules, my Joseph Rodgers and Sons wedges for example, work great with these stones but I still like the finish on the old ones I own better and I know this from the ones I have in my house. When I am done with these razors, the ones I own that satisfy me with a coticule finish, I feel no need to move to another stone, therefore I think this razor and this steel likes this stone.

I do think that a lot of coticules being sold today by vendors that I will not mention are not even up to snuff to the quality that was sold in the past few decades. I am talking about huge cracks, inclusions in the stone, etc. I am sorry, but to me, at least to my own experience and eyes these stones are not what "select" or "kosher" stones were in the past as far as quality is concerned. I own Kosher coticules that were sold decades ago and I own ones that are sold now that do have inclusions or cracks in them and there IS a difference to me when I test the razor from them. Again, maybe I'm crazy, not experienced enough or am easily influenced but to me that's just common sense. I did not say that if a razor of mine does not like a coticule it likes my vintage coticule as a generality, I said the edge may be "Better" than what the other stone I own delivers but still other methods end up being more satisfactory to me and my personal needs.

I do not think that every single coticule being mined today is the same as every single coticule mined in the past 100 years and therefore they are all the same when concerning the outcome of honing a razor. To me that is completely misleading to anyone trying to learn these stones.

Trust me, if all these stones ended up with the same outcome I would be the happiest member of these forums as I love these stones...but from what I've experienced it's just not true.

**Ryan82** · 08-10-2011, 02:03 AM

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but a lot can be said for learning how to use the hones you have, rather than pining for the ones you don't have....

**richmondesi** · 08-10-2011, 02:45 AM

I had a long response typed up, but decided I needed to go eat a sandwich or something. I also will be leaving now to go do an online course on logic and lunacy to see why I can't tell the difference. Cheers lol

**Disburden** · 08-10-2011, 02:49 AM

You know, a sandwich sounds pretty damn good right now.

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