Thread: Sugical Black Arkansas as Touch up Hone

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Interesting theory.. I disagree totallyFor 20+ years I used an Arkie for touch ups on my two straight razors...That must be some agressive leather you own, or very agressive stropping technique to round the bevel...

+1. I too have used Arkies to touch up my razor for a long time without any issues at all. In fact the barber who taught me to hone(and gave me my surgical black) used Arkies exclusively for touching up his razors for the 40-50 years he was a barber. The thing with Arkie's, or all natural stones, is that you need to commit and learn the stone. The more you use it and the more you understand the hone, the more consistant your results will be. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Theseus

+1. I too have used Arkies to touch up my razor for a long time without any issues at all. In fact the barber who taught me to hone(and gave me my surgical black) used Arkies exclusively for touching up his razors for the 40-50 years he was a barber. The thing with Arkie's, or all natural stones, is that you need to commit and learn the stone. The more you use it and the more you understand the hone, the more consistant your results will be. Just my opinion.

Same here I went to the "Naked Edge" in Denver with my Barber/friend and he helped me order the correct stone..

Isn't it funny the way that last part of your statement rings with truth I have shortened it to "The more you hone, the better your get"
I am pretty sure Lynn told me that too

With my translucent, I get almost zero feedback, it feels like glass. It's also very hit or miss with me. I need more serious time on my stone to figure it out I guess. I got one world class edge on one and probably five so/so edges

Disagreements expected - one might counter your opinion with an assumption of your use of aggressine pressure on the Ark to cut the bevel back to a flat surface. No disrespect intended - just sayin' - different strokes, ya know?

At any rate - rounding the bevel on leather, linen, or crox on linen isnt unheard of or undocumented. In fact - Iwasaki references a slight rounding of the bevel after a coulple of passes on what I believe to be Crox in one of his printed manals.
I do strop the heck out of an edge, agreed I dont find this to be the culprit or an absolute either. For example, that C135 I had probably wouldnt round if you dragged it behind a car fir 20 moles, On the other hand, I had an old sheffield of unknown origin would round and/or dull if you yelled it it.
What I can say for sure - is that one persons or one group of person's experiences doesnt make a fact. Having said that - I do know fior a fact that repeated burnishing if steel will put a curve on what was a flat surface, and a curved bevel will eventually lift the edge off the hone in a static state, like when one uses too much pressure on a full hollow.
Hey - someone once wrote that they had a Cnat that was as good a finisher as an Escher. Maybe they do. I tend to believe more than I disbelieve to be honest, so If someone says they get good results with a Trans as a touchup stone - so be it. Me - Id rather touch up on something thats cuts a bit more, I get better results that way. My mileage varies, depending on how I drive.

Originally Posted by Gamma

At any rate - rounding the bevel on leather, linen, or crox on linen isnt unheard of or undocumented. In fact - Iwasaki references a slight rounding of the bevel after a coulple of passes on what I believe to be Crox in one of his printed manals.

Yes many people say that, but that wasn't what you said in the first place, ("4-5 sessions on leather could mean needing to go to an 8k to remove that curve") if you had I probalby wouldn't have disagreed totally..

I would have simply said I haven't found that to be true (nor did Voerhevan)

Using Pastes: A new subject since you quoted it

My suggestion is that you actually take the time to do do your own testing, I tried to figure out which statement was true some years ago

1. Stropping with pastes causes a thin fragile edge
2. Stropping with pastes causes a Convex rounding of the bevel

I found that after really pushing the envelope by actually overusing harsh Diamond pastes that one of two things were true within a normal use period of shaves... (you can go read about it)

Either the theories were wrong, or I am the greatest stropper in the world..


I honestly don't think I am the greatest


A note about Normal use limits....

A note here, many statements that are fundementally true still have no bearing on the normal use of a straight razor..

At 90 shaves and no change in the bevel by overusing the pastes I figured it was a moot point whether either theory was true

At 30+ full honing cycles using tape and getting less then 1/2 of 1 degree of change in the bevel angle I determined that even if using tape changes the bevel angle of a razor that it is a moot point, because I will be long gone from this Earth when it might make a difference in the shave..

These are just 2 that I have tested, an Engineer would still argue that they are true, but a Realist would say "So What"

I have done a lot of testing actually - Maybe not as much testing as I'd like, or as controlled as I like, but still - a lot of testing.
Pastes are a funny thing - substrate and the amount of paste change the game instantly. When I thought Diamond paste was going to be my answer to all things sharp, I stumbled onto something. After 300 laps on .25 on nubuck, my edge was neither brittle or harsh, Nor was the bevel rounded. Diamond on a hanging linen definitely rounded the bevel, but the edge wasn't brittle.

A lot of Crox on a hard substrate did not round a bevel, but a lot of wet Crox did. I hate Crox so I gave up on it early on; at the time I attributed the rounding to be from the Crox squishing up from the slight pressure.
Can cause, and causes - are somewhat mutually exclusive terms when variables exist. Normal or practical use limits are often similar in the sense that what does or doesn't matter to me - might matter a lot, or not at all, to someone else. A parallel universe - the audio world is fraught with similar conundrums. Psychoacoustic are one area of interest that abounds with proofs and theories that can be disproven or proven day in and out.
I see a lot of this honing biz on a similar light, but thats just my take on what I've experienced.

[QUOTE=Gamma;989862]I have done a lot of testing actually - Maybe not as much testing as I'd like, or as controlled as I like, but still - a lot of testing.
Pastes are a funny thing - substrate and the amount of paste change the game instantly. When I thought Diamond paste was going to be my answer to all things sharp, I stumbled onto something. After 300 laps on .25 on nubuck, my edge was neither brittle or harsh, Nor was the bevel rounded. Diamond on a hanging linen definitely rounded the bevel, but the edge wasn't brittle.

A lot of Crox on a hard substrate did not round a bevel, but a lot of wet Crox did. I hate Crox so I gave up on it early on; at the time I attributed the rounding to be from the Crox squishing up from the slight pressure.
QUOTE]

Ok now you just lost me, you did the tests, you found the statements that you made earlier to be untrue, as you just stated above..
Yet you even quoted Iwasaki to try and prove them..

I am sorry but you are making no sense ,, first plain leather rounds the edge after 4-5 sessions, then pastes rounds the edge then only wet CrOx (who ever even uses wet CrOx) rounds the edge...

Methinks that you are not quite sure what you believe yet, perhaps a bit more testing on your part will let you figure it out..

Myself I am pretty sure of my findings

Originally Posted by Gamma

I hate Crox so I gave up on it early on; at the time I attributed the rounding to be from the Crox squishing up from the slight pressure.

Out of interest, why do you hate chrome ox?

I once had a "disagreement" here with a former member who thought it to be ineffectual. I find it to still have fairly significant cutting power while still refining an edge to a smooth finish - or at least my variety does. I have yet to find a razor that doesn't like it.

I think your missing my point, well - actually, you are missing my point, almost intentionally so. What is missing from my end of the dialogue is an attempt to qualify every statement in a way that usually isnt necessary.
Crox can round a bevel, and a bevel can be rounded on leather after 5-6 sessions on leather. Who uses wet crox is irrelevant. Im surprised you havent tried it actually. Having used abrasives in suspension myself, for other polishing concerns, it seemed like a logical part of a well planned test.
Does every razor respond to every medium on every substrate exactly the same way every time? No, - of course not.
The originsl point, the one that applied to the originsl topic was fairly simple, true, and proven in use by me. Someone elses findinds may prove otherwise - fact is that there can be mote than one truth in many situations.
A rounded bevel dies not allow the razor's edge to sit on a flat stone,
I find true hard Arks to polish, not cut, and therefore innefective as a touchup stone. A differing opinion says they work well as such. The laws of physics say thats impossible, unless; the stone's surface is bellied, or the spine is lifted, or the person making the judgement is incorrect. Maybe there's a few more factors to add in but those 3 come to mind first.
While I do have an affinity for healthy discussion, I have limited patience for discussions laden with condescending parental overtones. My personal stake in all of this shaving biz is a recreational one, nothing more. I see no reason for anyone to feel threatened or compromised by my opinions based on my findings, nor do I think my points should be so very difficult to understand. Anyone's differing opinion, as far as Im concerned, has nothing to do with what Ive seen or know to be true.
If someone elses Ark works as a touchup stone, and mine does not - who is right or wrong?

One more thing - I hate Crox because the green dust gets all over the place. It works just fine, but the mess isnt worth it to me.
Let me guess - the next claim will be; in practical use, a little green dust cant possibly have a negative effect on my existence because someone has been living with the dist for 30 years and it doesnt affect them. Lol.

[QUOTE=Gamma;990053]
While I do have an affinity for healthy discussion, I have limited patience for discussions laden with condescending parental overtones. My personal stake in all of this shaving biz is a recreational one, nothing more. I see no reason for anyone to feel threatened or compromised by my opinions based on my findings, nor do I think my points should be so very difficult to understand. Anyone's differing opinion, as far as Im concerned, has nothing to do with what Ive seen or know to be true.
If someone elses Ark works as a touchup stone, and mine does not - who is right or wrong? [QUOTE]

Got it

You make a statement which is wrong get called on it so you change your statement get called on that too , finally you switch to excatly what I said in the first place, and get called on that.. So your response is that your being picked on..

So far you have changed your stance 3 times, haven't proved any of them yet still continue..

My interest was only right here, your the one that took the convo in other directions

"Trans/ SB arks dont cut, they polish. And they are super hard - even a slight rounding of the bevel means the edge will not contact the stone. Thats why theyre not ideal for touchup stones, 4-5 sessions on leather could mean needing to go to an 8k to remove that curve."


I totally disagreed with that statement, everything else you have typed is unimportant to me, keep in mind that unlike most other forums SRP will call ya on info that you post.. Now since you have already posted that you have found that your original statement is not true in your subsequent posts we can leave it there...

One more thing - I hate Crox because the green dust gets all over the place. It works just fine, but the mess isnt worth it to me.
Let me guess - the next claim will be; in practical use, a little green dust cant possibly have a negative effect on my existence because someone has been living with the dist for 30 years and it doesnt affect them

Actually I would tell you you are using it wrong or too much of it

Now I won't pick on you any longer... and I am sorry if I seemed condescending, by asking you to clarify statements I found to be unsubstantiated..