Thread: Sugical Black Arkansas as Touch up Hone

I have a new toy coming tomorrow. I'm sort of blurting this out in the middle of this thread while others are having a spat, but I have been through more woodworking stones than I can recall... and though I would call my self "not a user of oilstones", I've probably been through 8 or 10 of them, too, including a hard black ark and two big tranlucents.

Sold them all, and put oil on an 8x3 purple welsh slate - it's a faster cutting hone with smaller but more aggressive particles once it settles in.

But still have a jones for another ark, so I ordered (with the wood shop in mind and not necessarily razors) a "black translucent" arkansas, which I'm going to assume will just be a very very dark translucent, or perhaps maybe it's a very very dense black stone with some translucence.

I'll snap a picture of it if I can remember. What strikes me about it for razors, and why people puzzle over them (it was probably said already) is that they are coarse stones when freshly lapped - they have large particles, and the black arks have some really large random particles in them, from time to time with tools one will let go and give you the sensation that you accidentally left a large stray grit from somewhere else on the stone (you know...the crunching noise and a scratch across the surface, too). I think those particles can be many times larger, like 5 or 6, than the underlying grit size of the stone. Leonard lee, I think, had a picture in his sharpening book of the surface of one - it's alarming, but if they don't ever come loose and the surface of the stone settles, it's like sharpening an airplane wing on golf balls with some soccer balls mixed in.

At any rate, the keys to getting a good edge (and there are two) with an arkansas stone, at least if you want the very finest from them, are:
1) to allow the surface of the stone to burnish itself, while still making sure that it is flushed free of random metal. That means no lapping. The stone will cut excrutiatingly slowly when you get to that point, which means that an edge needs to come with it off of a stone at least as small in grit size, and smaller with deeper grooves (like most of the synthetic 8k+ hones) is ok.
2) to use alloys with either tiny carbides or nearly none. Old simple steel razors should come off of them with a magical edge. Vanadium carbides are probably as hard or harder than a lot of novaculite.

There is probably not a stone harder to get good results from than an ark stone, but once you figure out how to get the results, it's trivial. I know I'm jonesing for mine, even though it'll take at least several weeks of use in the wood shop with high pressure from tools to settle the surface in.

Originally Posted by Gamma

One more thing - I hate Crox because the green dust gets all over the place. It works just fine, but the mess isnt worth it to me.
Let me guess - the next claim will be; in practical use, a little green dust cant possibly have a negative effect on my existence because someone has been living with the dist for 30 years and it doesnt affect them. Lol.

There's a simple solution to that problem: use a liquid medium such as mineral oil and you'll never have to worry about dust again. And I'll save you the guesswork - it DOES work well, even if you haven't lived with it for 30 years....

Originally Posted by Wid

Sure, I hope it's OK to do so on the forum. I got mine from Natural Whetstone Company Home Page

It's an 8x3 1 inch.

That's the same place I got mine from, but I went with a 6"x2". I really like mine as a finisher, and all but one razor has taken a superb edge from it. I've got a few razors that were honed and finished on a Y/G Escher and the trans black edge rivals those edges, for sure.

Well it's been a few days, a few emails, and a few posts about all of this. I don't know that there's a spat, but there certainly is a disagreement or two about a few points of interest, ideas, and what may or may not be fact.

Factually - I've never tried Crox with oil and while it sounds like a reasonable approach, please note that I never said it doesn't work. It does work - I don't like the dust - any kind of dust for that matter. Regardless of the amount I've used on any substrate - I've always found the resulting green dust to be an issue. I didn't record the amount of dust so I can't help anyone with an inquiry there.
I'll accept that I may have used it incorrectly without needing a tutorial to go with it. At this point, I have no need for using it.
That's all - I've never slammed Crox' capability or Crox users for using it. I felt the same about diamond spray too to be honest. Personally - I'd rather just re-hone the edge a bit. I'm not pressed for finding an edge that's up to snuff and there's a few hones lying around so I'm not without need there either.
The rest;
Since sometimes I don't type out my thoughts so very clearly - an issue that is so ironic it's not funny - I'll attempt a redux;

Yes, I do believe that a bevel can round after 5-6 sessions on plain leather, a croxed hanger, and possibly some other substrates as well. I believe this because it's happend when I tried to create that situation intentionally.
No - I don't find that to happen as fast with crox on a harder/flatter substrate. Having spent time trying to find fail points in the myriad of systems touted by the all-knowing of the shaving world, and a way to hone that works for me - that's what I've seen. Now - a disclaimer - That's here, in my house. What happens in another house is irrlevant to me for the most part. It really is.
My Surg black ark does not cut spit off anything, including soft German cutlery. You can run a blade over that stone forever and a day and ntohing is going to happen other than you'll have a very misty suface to look at. Same for the Trans Ark I've had. Polish - yes, cut no. Both are killer finishers for me and both were very consistent in this regard. Harder steels were a bear to finish on either - softer steels were still a chore but the results were and still are a benchmark edge for me.
Neither were able to dress down a rounded bevel in any amount of time I'd ever care to spend doing so.

A rounded bevel will raise the edge up off the stone when the spine is flat. I've recreated this situation many times. So many times that I consider it to be a fact.
A straight with a rounded bevel on a True Hard Ark is - to me - a useless situation. My answer to that is to drop to an 8k, maybe lower actually, to get back to a flattendd bevel. If it needed more I'd probably go lower in grit, or to a coarser Nagura. Whatever the case, the result needed is to get the edge back on the stone to where it will undercut the slurry water how I like it to.
Maybe someone has a better stone, or a dished stone, or their bevel isn't problematic - or whatever - and they can use a Trans Ark as a touchup stone. Not me, not here - not happening.

For the sake of clarity - I didn't quote anyone - I did however reference a part of Iwasaki's manual or guide. He found that the bevel would round after a few passes on Crox, I think his substrate was some kind of wool if Im not mistaken. At any rate - the rounding of the bevel was my point. Iwasaki's recommendation was to move back to the Awase to do what you might call a horizontal stroke to remove the slightly rounded bevel. My take on his idea is to basically do the same thing when the bevel is 'off' from use or whatever. I just don't find that it works on an Ark at all. My best results here are to use a lower grit option to cut, not a stone that just polishes.

If any or all of that seems to be wrong, in whole or in part, to anyone here or there - so be it. My own feelings about most of all of this 'forum stuff' is that in any discussion dynamic, heated or otherwise, there's really not much to get excited about. What happens here on SRP is actually no so different than what goes on in other forums so there's no surprise there. Some may feel otherwise. Whatever. I read a lot of things written all over the place by lots of different people. That's what I do for a living actually. I see more conflicing info on a daily basis than any one person should have to be subjected to. I'm used to it, it's part of being a human in this world we live in.

I've come to realize that this is a world with very few 'pure absolutes'. What I find to be true for myself may in fact not be true for someone else. Correct me if I'm wrong - but this is about shaving, right? So - ok, with that in mind I think there's very little reason for anyone to be so very agitated. While that seems true to me, obviously it's not. Again - there are very few absolutes.
I got a new shave-ready Kami in the mail today - I'm going to go shave with it now. I may even run it over my Coticule on oil when I'm done - just to see what happens. Maybe I'll be surprised. Probably not but who knows.

Enjoy the lather.

Originally Posted by Gamma

Yes, I do believe that a bevel can round after 5-6 sessions on plain leather, a croxed hanger, and possibly some other substrates as well. I believe this because it's happend when I tried to create that situation intentionally.

Situation #4 Sorry man but that is the 4th time you have tried to change your position in this 1 thread

Now it only happens when you try and create it face it and get over yourself, you are wrong, you can try and change what you wrote with longer and longer posts but it doesn't change the facts...

Awaiting the 5th change of position

Actually even reading all that last post was tiresome, your train of thought was all over the place trying to sound like at least something you said made sense, please just let it go...

Go hone, strop, shave on your rounded bevels and be happy

Just to make the last post of this thread something a little less grouchy, I wouldn't choose a Surgical black as a touch up hone. But as a wise man once said, "Once you figure out what you're doing, the choice of stone is much less important." That's not exactly what that wise fellah said, but it's the closest I can manage. I'm fully confident if a person chose to use a Surgical Black for long enough, they could probably give me an edge I'd envy. I was lucky enough to find a second hand thuringian once, and the stone was as close to "plug and play" as any synthetic I've owned. Hence, it became my one any only choice for a touch up/finishing stone. I also don't have much use for old barber hones, beyond collecting.

Bible verse of the day "Interfering in someone else’s argument is as foolish as yanking a dog’s ears." And so, I won't comment, beyond saying I don't think it's showing SRP in it's best light. JMHO

OK I am curious about DaveW's comment - no lapping. How does that effect the honing of the razor. I lapped mine flat , but still have some grit marks below the surface. Are you saying it is OK to hone a straight on it without lapping? I have not yet tried a razor. I am not look forward to working out the grit marks below the surface to get a glass smooth working area. Is it necessary to to so or is being lapped flat OK or just no lapping??

A lot of interesting points in this thread, makes me want to break out my Surgical Black and have a go with a razor. Better than a Y/G Escher...? That's a bold statement. I've seen some guys put amazing edges on blades with various stones, The right tools in the right hands deal. As far as not lapping, I'd like to hear more about that. I was always under the impression that a stone should be checked for flatness, and lapped if needed. I hold the stone up the light with a straight edge diagnolly acorss it. If I see light between the stone and the edge, I lapp it. We always preach about the razor needing to be flat and even on the rock while you hone, so you see where I'm going with this.... I'm no Arkie expert, that's for sure.

A while ago, I got such a great deal on them, it was hard to pass up. I have quite a few in various sizes, including a huge 14" Trans.

I'd have to agree with regularjoe, I've been using an Escher as my primary finisher, and I'm very satisfied with the edges I get. I switch every once in a while from B/G to Y/G

Re: "no lapping". Maybe what was meant was something like:
Once these stones are lapped properly flat, don't lap them again. They are hard enough they won't dish out, and they need the "break-in" time of some honing to help polish the surface to its optimum. Additional lapping will roughen things again, taking you backwards.


Then again, maybe that isn't what was meant, but that's what I got out of it.

That's what's meant. the particles in an arkansas hone are pretty large. You have to wear them so that they lose aggressiveness or they'll leave you with a coarse edge, and possibly a wire edge.