Thread: If you could only buy one...

Originally Posted by DaveW

The important part of the discussion above is the carbides. If you want to point the thread in a different direction, maybe start a different thread.

The original poster wanted a suggestion on hones, nothing about carbides. I just felt that you were condeming the op to the use of pasted strops.
And BTW honing a carbon steel VS stainless steel is relatively equal, the stainless might require a little more polishing, and that not only from my personal experienced its from many very experienced members as well.

When the razors are finished only on the stone without any aluminum oxide, chromium oxide or diamonds following a natural hone, the edge simply won't be as good. The carbides in the steel are harder than natural abrasives. It might be a good edge, but it won't be as good as the same edge will be on carbon steel. It is extremely well known elsewhere, but there seems to be an absence of talking about it on here for some reason. I see sellers of razors (TSS etc) mentioning that they can't tell the difference in edges between stainless and carbon, and I can only gather from that that those folks are either using a modern abrasive, or they are not sharpening any of their razors very sharp with a natural stone.

I don't think there's anything wrong with maintaining a razor with pastes.

If you intend to touch up your razor only with the finest stone you have (which is what I like to do) and you are only "getting one stone" as the OP is mentioning, then it is better to touch up the razor with the hone than it is to use pastes, unless the pastes are used very sparingly, and with very light pressure.

For a razor that doesn't see pastes, 20 laps on a finish stone once a month is all that's required. Add in a couple of touch ups with a pasted strop between, and that's not true, and how far from true it is depends on how aggressive the paste and how aggressive the stropper.

But if ya get fine shaves with out the pastes.
I don't even see the need to mess up a nice strop with the pastes.
Well i have to be honest one doesn't need the number of manmade and natural razors hones
that i got to choice from.

Originally Posted by DaveW

When the razors are finished only on the stone without any aluminum oxide, chromium oxide or diamonds following a natural hone, the edge simply won't be as good. The carbides in the steel are harder than natural abrasives. .

So the carbides in steel are harder then diamond?

Originally Posted by Martin103

So the carbides in steel are harder then diamond?

I thought stainless steel alloy bad choice for razors for it
reseists the abraisive action of the nice stones.

How many natural diamonds have you used to sharpen a razor? None. But that's beside the point, I'm talking about stones.

Of course diamonds are harder than carbides, but we are talking about stones that would finish a razor, and diamonds are not included in any of them unless I've missed a new 0.25 micron diamond stone (I haven't). It is also extremely unlikely anyone is using natural diamonds on razors.

Name the popular natural stones that we're left discussing, and tell me which of them has abrasives harder than chromium carbides and vanadium carbides. If you have an abrasives softer than the carbides, all you can hope to do is wear carbides down with excessive strokes or hope that the carbides are all smaller than the abrasives.

Originally Posted by Suile

I thought stainless steel alloy bad choice for razors for it
reseists the abraisive action of the nice stones.

My point exactly. I just recently bought a bunch of friodur and friodur blank based razors, and they are lacking off the natural stones without a follow up from some synthetic abrasive. They also seem to be a bit softer than the harder tempered carbon steel razors. Not to say they can't shave well, they can, but I am a bit disappointed compared to my better carbon steel razors that can easily be brought to weeper sharp with anything escher or finer.

Originally Posted by DaveW

It is extremely well known elsewhere,

Where exactly are you referring to?

Perhaps you can provide references and further explanation. I am having difficulty understanding your post.

Originally Posted by DaveW

weeper sharp

Please help me understand this term.

Originally Posted by unit

Where exactly are you referring to?

Perhaps you can provide references and further explanation. I am having difficulty understanding your post.

Woodworking, metalworking, polishing, toolmaking, knife enthusiasts....all of these folks seem to have a better grasp on carbides and abrasives. Carbides are pretty much the reason oilstones have fallen out of favor with woodworkers, and even novice woodworkers seem to have a good understanding of why some tool steels are more difficult to sharpen than others. Metalworkers and machinists have a good understanding of them because they've been using high speed steel cutters for a long time, and toolmaker's for the same reason.

Part of the reason there's not a good grasp of it in the razoring world is because most razors seem to be made of mystery steel. Aside from that, I'm not sure why it is not that well understood when the information is freely available and everyone else seems to have a good grasp on it. All of the other hobbyists / trades I mentioned above know exactly what steel they're sharpening when they're choosing an abrasive. Nobody in *any* of them would recommend a natural stone for a razor that was cryogenically treated 440C, even though the cryogenic treatment does make for an improvement in the size and structure of the carbides.

To the point of the original question, if you like to use mostly stainless razors and you match up a stone with soft silica abrasive or novaculite, it shouldn't be a surprise that you have a lot less room for error and a lot more time at the stones to get an edge that will still be inferior to a quick carbon steel edge.

Stop by woodcentral and mention carbides and abrasives, and provide the opinion above, that stainless and carbon steel sharpen to a similar level of sharpness, and see what people say. You will instantly get a response that it is only the case with abrasives harder than the carbides in the stainless steel (though woodworkers more commonly use A2 steel and in some cases high speed steel, the carbides are the same elements).