Thread: These just came in!

The be-all and end-all of it is, as Glen said, if "the edge produced feels better on your face" then you have the hone for you.

There are three variables here:

1. razor - steel composition and bevel
2. hone
3. your skin and stubble - not anyone else's, yours.

Find what's right for you and you are made. Telling other people that the grit of your natural is so-and-so without any reference to why and you are an idiot. It's a bit like beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

Regards,
Neil

Grit is an interesting thing. I think in many people's minds it is a figure that is "set in stone" (pun kinda intended), particularly with synthetics. However, it is merely a measure and any measure is only as good as the measuring device and the (in the case of synthetics) manufacturing techniques.

There's always variability. For the sake of argument, when you buy a 16K synthetic like a Shapton, what you are getting is something the manufacturer rates at that value. Different manufacturers seem to have different scales as well - I did a little analysis a while back on claimed grit ratings and it seems that some manufacturers have different scales - Norton and Shapton for example. It makes it all a bit tricky when using "grit" ratings as the sole comparative criteria between hones.

I do not know this for a fact, but I suspect (in fact logic dictates) that grit ratings are a summary measure - no synthetic stone, no matter how well manufactured, will be uniformly comprised of xK grit particulates uniformly arranged throughout the suspension media. In fact I suspect it is something like a maximum - there is no grit particulate larger than a certain micron size, though again it depends on the manufacturing and quality control processes in place.

The trick is whether any of this variation makes any difference to the outcome - which I don't really think it does with respect to synthetics.

Of course the problems are only exacerbated with naturals - mother nature is not really concerned with control flows and will more often than not throw up variety rather than homogeneity. It's what makes buying naturals that much trickier even within the same "type" (cf Coticules or the various strata of Jnats, for example). There can be no doubt that naturals have a "grit" (by simple definition), but it may not be usefully consistent throughout the stone, and may even vary as honing progresses ("friable grit" stones, for example).

Of course one cannot crush up every natural stone and then measure the maximum grit particulate within it, and so we get "comparative" grit ratings for these stones. People try them and compare them to other stones of (hopefully) "known" grit. Of course, the only way this works is if the reference stone(s) is (are) of known grit, which as I have said above, is theoretically fraught but probably pragmatically sound.

In any event, it is perhaps better to not focus on grit ratings for naturals and instead try to sort them into an order based on outcome. For example, I have often claimed one of my Jnats is around 20-30K since it produces edges comparable to CrOx. It is not incorrect to make that claim. However, it is not a measure based on grit, it is simply a comparison with other, "known" grit honing media. And that's not taking into account the various other ways that a honing medium can impart a "feeling" onto steel, such as grit shape, arrangement, "friability" etc. However, in the end that doesn't really matter - people associate the number with the outcome as a general rule.

So, while I believe natural stones have a "grit" it is for all intents and purposes impossible to determine the magnitude with any accuracy. Instead it needs to be simply placed in a range based on comparisons of use. So when you see a grit claim for a natural the first thought should be about the rater, not the stone. As in, "I wonder what this person is comparing to. I wonder how much experience they have in doing it." And, particularly in the case of vendors of naturals "I wonder what their motivation is in making this claim." Research is your friend here too, as if you do some you may be able to answer another important question when buying or rating a natural: "Does this tie in with what others I trust have claimed for this class of stone?".

James.

Thanks guys, I am not so much hung up with a specific number I suppose, as where to put is when progressing through stones. Thanks for the sand paper example. Perfect! I use worn belts all the time for different things, so that rung my bell right away!

When I first got the purple one, I experimented with it on hundreds of razors. It certainly can produce a nice finish and it can be used with the one stone method. It is definitely not as consistent a finisher as the Naniwa SS 12K and is certainly not a better finisher in my opinion. YMMV which in this case is why so many new people get confused with so much conflicting information.

Escalating post counts do not always correspond with experience.

Have fun.

Originally Posted by brooksie967

Great stones! "As with all Naturals" as everyone here says and you will see over and over again, there is some variation in performance. Maybe I just got a 'good one' but my purple stone from AJ puts a nicer edge on my razors than the 12k naniwa (just my opinion) and I use them as pre-polishers for my jnats now. The "thuringian" which it is not, might slightly improve the edge. Very versatile hones. A few of the very senior guys have used them with great success, especially the purple one. The purple one was also used by Lynn to do the one stone honing, if i recall correctly.

And advertising is Advertising,

You don’t really think you are going to see that bikini clad girl, at the Carls Jr. drive up window, or "that" beer will make you the Most or even, mildly interesting?

Do you?

Originally Posted by Lynn

Escalating post counts do not always correspond with experience.

Ain't that the truth. I've seen a couple people with fairly high post counts that dont seem to know their ass from a hole in the ground on 99% of topics. I guess it comes with the territory on the interwebs where everyone is an expert. Best advice to further elaborate on what you said Lynn, is that most people should take what they read online with a grain of salt. That also goes with people looking at advertising period.

I know I've said this before in another thread, but at the risk of repeating myself ....... I would suggest a new honer, who is seriously getting into honing as a sport in itself, get a set of nortons, or shaptons, or naniwas and stop there. Not all three brands, just one of the brands that have earned a reputation as a viable set of razor hones. There are others BTW, but I'm naming those I've had hands on experience with.

Learn to hone, get to know those stones. When you feel like you're ready dip your foot into the naturals. Get one, maybe two and stop there. Learn those. Once you feel like you really know them dip your foot in the water again and get something else if you're curiosity is piqued.

Buying hones for the sake of HAD is not the worst thing you could be addicted to, but if you get so many that you are like a guy at a buffet and can't decide what to eat ...... it is easy to get so many you'll be a long time getting to really know any or them or get a systematic method to use them. Just IMHO.

the way i prepare any piece of slate is with a very worn 325 dmt and then a 4x2 or 6x2 translucent stone. i rub the stones together until i cant see any scratches the better the stones finish the better it will preform.

Originally Posted by eleblu05

the way i prepare any piece of slate is with a very worn 325 dmt and then a 4x2 or 6x2 translucent stone. i rub the stones together until i cant see any scratches the better the stones finish the better it will preform.

Ok, can someone elaborate on a "well worn" DMT 325? Im not too thrilled about having to constantly buy sandpaper and lapping on glass. And if the 325 is the starting point for lapping, what would be another good alternative to maintain a flat surface on an already lapped stone?

Originally Posted by TexasShaver

Ok, can someone elaborate on a "well worn" DMT 325? Im not too thrilled about having to constantly buy sandpaper and lapping on glass. And if the 325 is the starting point for lapping, what would be another good alternative to maintain a flat surface on an already lapped stone?

On a lapped stone i use a credit card size dmt 325 or 600 just to clean up before use and also to create slurry if wanted, easier to use the the 8x3 DMT, i keep that one for lapping stone and it is well worn for sure from use and abuse lapping multiple stone and sharpening different items.All Dmt's need breaking in period they are quite agressive at first.