Thread: Norton 8K

So I've recently started honing and I've got a small coticle, two PHIGS, what is suspected to be a LI, and a Norton 1k and the 4/8k combo. I've tried all the "finishing" stones and I find that the shave coming straight off the Norton 8K then CroX and strop gives me the most comfortable shave. Am I using the finishers wrong? The PHIG's and LI could very well not be in the finishing grit range, I get that, however the Coti edge is also not as comfortable as the Norton. I understand that scratch pattern is not an indicator of sharp/smoothness when natural hones are used but I get a mirror finish on the bevel with the 8K and scratches with the Coti. Any suggestions on how to properly use the Coti to finish a razor would be greatly appreciated. I am assuming the issue is with me as I'm new at this.

Thanks in advance, Mike

Nope not necessarily you. The coti may simply not be up to the task.

I assume you've tried the coti with water only after the 8k ?

Mike,
I only have 3 years into the honing & have never used a paste/powder/Crox, but I have used the PHIG quite a bit on about 8 different razors, good to great shaves were achieved. The PHIG is a slow finisher. There are some threads attached to this page, read as much as you can, to get as much as you can, out of the PHIG.
Chinese Guangxi Hones - Straight Razor Place Wiki

My finisher now is a coticle. It's a natural stone, so there is a for sure a slight difference in all , from stone to stone. There is for sure a learning curve with the coticle. Different steels have required me to stretch my routine to sometimes 40+ strokes, different pressure; while some of my razors have beeen finished on the coticle with as little as 20 strokes with the razors weight only.

Enjoy the honing the razor & don't see it as a task that must be accomplished. To me the coticle is a new journey with each razor.

PHIG's are sometimes lower than 8K & can take over 100 strokes per side to finish. Coti's have been my honing Achilles' heal, I've been through about 5 of them without satisfaction & I had given up on them until I borrowed a good one from a online friend. What you have to keep in mind is that you are talking about natural stones & their grit is unknown, which is why I use synthetic stones all the way to finisher...then I use a natural.

Yes I've tried the Coti after the 8K with water only. I find that the Coti removes the mirror finish that I get from the 8K. I've also tried coming off the 8K and raising a slurry on the Coti then rinsing that off and using water only.

The PHIG has worked the best as a finisher so far. I'm a little uncertain when a finishing hone is do its job. The Bevel setter is done once the blade easily cuts arm hair at skin level alone the length of the blade. The 4K is done once I have removed the 1K scratch pattern and the edge feels better and will pick up hair above skin level. The 8K puts a mirror finish on the bevel, so what does the finisher do and how do you folks determine when that step in the progression is complete?

I was also going through these tests of the different finishers without using CROx at the end, just strop, just to keep things even and to give me a feeling of what the different edges feel like.

You can only find out a naturals potential by using it in different ways and test shaving. My phig never delivered but I gave up on it too quickly and will revisit it soon. My coti was easy, my nakayama asagi took me a month to get a very good but not great edge, my shuobudani 100 stone I got the sharpest edge from any stone ever in 3 tries, shavette sharp and smooth. My stones I finish with slight slurry. Water only hasn't done it for me yet. And that may well be my skills need improvement. One hour to learn and a lifetime to master.

So what does the bevel look like once your done on the finishing stone? Is there a small scratch pattern left from the natural, as opposed to the mirror finish you get from the 8K? I'm going to systematically take one natural at a time and use it in different ways until I figure it out.

This is true. Some of my best shaves were from razors that showed some definite scratches still under my loupe. Some of my worst shaves were from mirror finished edges!

Mike

Sounds like you have a baseline and are at least happy with edges you have produced. Moving to natural finishers is more difficult, than say a 12K SuperStone edge and can cause you to chase the elusive finest edge, like so many of us.

First let me qualify that “Hair Test are over rated and not a definitive test.” Why? Because all of us have different hair. What I do is at 1K, once I feel the bevel is sharp, based on how it feels on the stone, how the edge feel on the thumb pad and looking at the edge under magnification.

Take the spine rest it on your arm, rotate the edge about 3/8 to ½ inches off the skin and move the blade against your arm hair at the top of the hair. I am looking for the edge to grab a hair. Do this at 4 different points on the edge, beginning near the tip, then move in ¾ of an inch, ¾ inch more then near the heel. You should be grabbing hair or cutting them all across the edge.

The bevel is set, both sides of the bevel meet at an even point across the entire edge, it is sharp, now begins the polishing. I do some extra weight of blade laps, 10-15. At this stage edge is sharp and I am beginning the polishing process.

When you honed the bevel the grit on the stone created a series of mountains and valleys, lands and grooves. If you were to shave with this edge the land peaks would dig into you skin, you would cut hair, but also cut skin. Perhaps not enough to draw blood but it will be uncomfortable.

The goal of polishing is to reduce the height of the land, tops while maintaining and enhancing the edge keenness. So we use a progression of stones and possibly paste to polish the height of the lands as close to the groove. With synthetics this is not too difficult, if you introduce a Natural stone you do not know exactly where the Natural stone fits into the progression. Natural stones cannot be rated because they are made naturally, not under controlled condition. While most of the grit may be X grit there may be other grits included. Remember rocks are created by wind, water and time,(thousands of years). Just one single courser grit can affect the honing results.

So introducing a Natural may subvert you synthetic progression. Only by experimenting will you know where your particular Natural will fit in your progression. It may very well be less that your 8K. Add to that the different quality or type of stones. Coticules are frangible stone that the grit of slurry breaks down to a finer grit, creating more polish. Other stones like the C12K do not or not to the extent of a Coticule.

Lapping a hard stone like a C12K is labor intensive because of the hardness it is also the quality that may make a good finisher. First draw a pencil grid and lap on a piece of wet and dry or a stone to check for flatness. The goal is to smooth the stone face, it does not have to be perfectly flat. Smooth is more important than flat. I just want it relatively flat, lose Silicone Carbide grit and or Wet & Dry sand paper with water will get you there, it is messy. I go to 320 then lap with a Hard Arkansas stone with lots of water and Diamond or CBN paste if you have it or use you synthetic progression ending with your highest grit stone with lots of water.

Get the stone as smooth as possible, then burnish the stone face with steel. I like honing 2-3 kitchen knives with pressure. It won’t hurt your knives and will leave a smooth face on your stone.

Try your stone with Smith’s synthetic honing oil (Lowes or Ace Hardware) with water and many laps after your 8K, as many as 100 or more laps. If it is a hard stone 1-200 laps is not unreasonable. You may also experiment with pressure, I find honing with pressure works well with Arkansas Blacks and Translucent for some razors, they are similar in hardness to C12k’s.

By the way Smith’s works well with Coticules, try light pressure and more laps.

For Driftwood

I've been using straights for a long time. Really long time. I attribute my honing success to setting a goal. That goal is being able to get a smooth, comfortable shave from my 8k stone. I don't move up in grit until the blade shaves me with no discomfort whatsoever.

At this point it is time to put the icing on the cake with the 12k and maybe even the 20k if I'm in the mood to decapitate myself or all the way to the Nakayama Maruichi Asagi for the coup de gracie.

Shoot for the comfortable 8k shave before you think about all else.