Thread: Honing and pressure

Originally Posted by Trimmy72

5 Days after I post the video and nothing? I guess the previews were more exciting than the movie Haha! Okay, well I tried...

Are you looking for feedback?

You have pretty good stroke discipline. The razor travels the same length and follows the same path. That's good.

You are moving the razor around too fast and it looks sloppy. I'm not sure if that is causing problems or not, because it's too fast to see.

The pressure applied to the tip alone will kill the razor in the long run.

Equal pressure is the key. I can't really tell. I think your close, but still, it's the speed that is worrying me the most. I'm guessing the pressure equalization could be better, but that it's not too bad either.

For setting a bevel that looked okay. I'd spread the pressure out over a few fingers and slow down.

If you can hone fast, chances are your doing it wrong. The real problem is that, when setting a bevel, pressure isn't that important. You can use variances in pressure, so firm works fine for me.

A razor won't get sharp honing like that, so I wouldn't spend too much time focused on bevel setting. I don't even find the discussion interesting really, so I don't go crazy with the "gotta set the bevel" crowd.

If a beginner is honing at the speed your honing at I'd say there is plenty of pressure being applied to set a decent bevel. You've probably set the bevel 20 times over. But if the pressure isn't exactly equal on both sides you might be creating a weak bevel.

Edit: Oh, yea, I forgot, you are flipping the razor in the wrong direction.

Sorry. I watched the video and had nothing really constructive to say. The video turned out pretty good. From an iPhone, remember when phones just made phone calls.

Great thread, great video and great feedback. My question is related to zeroing out the weight of the razor. If you put the razor on the hone with the scales open the razor will fall off of the hone. And it will vary depending on the weight of the scales which vary greatly between horn and plastic and everywhere in between. So the blade has zero or even a negative weight and even a progressively negative weight from the tip toward the shank. Since you are holding the scales in your hand the weight of the razor is really not able to be calculated. If you agree with this premise then the numbers themselves are totally irrelevant and only the delta of the weight during the stroke and the delta between the forward and backward strokes matter.

Have you noticed that since performing this exercise that your pressure has decreased due to the attention and discipline of the experiment?

I envy your technique. I also think about the various pressures related to setting a bevel on various stones. The pressure delta on a Chosera vs a Coticule for one example. Not suggesting or requesting you do more work. Just food for thought.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Are you looking for feedback?

You have pretty good stroke discipline. The razor travels the same length and follows the same path. That's good.

You are moving the razor around too fast and it looks sloppy. I'm not sure if that is causing problems or not, because it's too fast to see.

The pressure applied to the tip alone will kill the razor in the long run.

Equal pressure is the key. I can't really tell. I think your close, but still, it's the speed that is worrying me the most. I'm guessing the pressure equalization could be better, but that it's not too bad either.

For setting a bevel that looked okay. I'd spread the pressure out over a few fingers and slow down.

If you can hone fast, chances are your doing it wrong. The real problem is that, when setting a bevel, pressure isn't that important. You can use variances in pressure, so firm works fine for me.

A razor won't get sharp honing like that, so I wouldn't spend too much time focused on bevel setting. I don't even find the discussion interesting really, so I don't go crazy with the "gotta set the bevel" crowd.

If a beginner is honing at the speed your honing at I'd say there is plenty of pressure being applied to set a decent bevel. You've probably set the bevel 20 times over. But if the pressure isn't exactly equal on both sides you might be creating a weak bevel.

Edit: Oh, yea, I forgot, you are flipping the razor in the wrong direction.

Well, I was trying demonstrate how much pressure to use. Not that I "know how much to use". What's the bench mark I guess is what I was after. But I really can't answer that unless others can do the experiment too.
Hmmm.......going to fast? Thanks for your input, I'll try slowing it down. My main concerns when honing are keeping the spine in contact with the hone, I check my bevel with a 40X loupe and typically look for a shadow or dark area at the edge, I stay on the 1k until I don't see that anymore - but I do feel I spend more time on the 1k compared to others. I think I've heard a time around 20 min. I know this is not set in stone, maybe an indicator at best, but I think it would be relative to the amount of pressure used also, so that's another reason I was curious, I spend more then 20 min.
I've been honing my razors for the last three years and other peoples for the past year with no complaint -
Haha, Yes I know I flip it the wrong way, it's just how I do it, seems more natural to me (not the safest way) and I haven't banged an edge yet. I tried very hard to do it the "right way" and decided it was causing me more problems then the "right way" but thank you I doubt I will change that, I have a routine and it works for me.

Originally Posted by RezDog

Sorry. I watched the video and had nothing really constructive to say. The video turned out pretty good. From an iPhone, remember when phones just made phone calls.

So, you think I was doing thing's the right way apart from the way I do my flip? Pressure wise what do you think? Yes I do remember that, I want to so bad find a rotary phone and give it to my kids and tell them to make a phone call, hehe

Direction of the flip is another interesting discussion. I have worked on both and find that I see more risk in the proper method of flipping as it exposes the edge (in a two handed stroke) to the off hand reaching for a grasp for the next stroke. I find that flipping with the edge down feels safer to me and is more natural. I have yet to bang the edge on the stone. In contrast I have almost had a substantial accident with the "proper" technique. With one handed technique I flip as I strop in the "proper" way with the edge traveling up and away from the stone.

Originally Posted by Avenolpey

Great thread, great video and great feedback. My question is related to zeroing out the weight of the razor. If you put the razor on the hone with the scales open the razor will fall off of the hone. And it will vary depending on the weight of the scales which vary greatly between horn and plastic and everywhere in between. So the blade has zero or even a negative weight and even a progressively negative weight from the tip toward the shank. Since you are holding the scales in your hand the weight of the razor is really not able to be calculated. If you agree with this premise then the numbers themselves are totally irrelevant and only the delta of the weight during the stroke and the delta between the forward and backward strokes matter.

Have you noticed that since performing this exercise that your pressure has decreased due to the attention and discipline of the experiment?

I envy your technique. I also think about the various pressures related to setting a bevel on various stones. The pressure delta on a Chosera vs a Coticule for one example. Not suggesting or requesting you do more work. Just food for thought.

Removing the razor after zeroing the scale out did create a negative number by maybe a half oz.? I'd have to set it up again... But as soon as you spray water on the hone it adds some back so yes I agree it's not accurate. The other thing is if you don't look at it as a weight, but as a bench mark you could at least maybe be consistent. I have not noticed a decrease in pressure since doing this, I've always felt I was not heavy handed enough to be as effective at setting a bevel as others, based on other post I've read here, but that is an assumption on my part - My main reasoning for this is the 20 min. I typically read about it taking to set a bevel. As AFDavis said I might be setting the bevel several times and just don't realize it. Some input from others would be nice on that, Like I said in an earlier post I'm looking at the edge with a 40x loupe, what I look for is a shadow or dark area at the very edge, until that disappears, I stay on the 1k

The main risk, that I see with the way I do the flip is banging the edge, chipping, or worse case banging it so hard I just break it. Rolling it on the spine is the best way for the razors sake. When I started honing, tried to do it the proper way, I just couldn't get it, so I went with what worked for me...
Some times I use both hands depends on the stroke I'm using, but I reserve that just for those strokes.

Trimmy,

THanks for this thread. I posted something similar that Jim did in our Texas meet yesterday, and was subsequently directed to this thread.

Last night, after the meet and as a result of Jim bringing his scale, I changed my honing technique. Prior to yesterday I was using my left index finger to apply to the spine the minimum pressure neccessary to keep the razor from tilting off the right side of the hone. My right hand makes the horizontal plane motions that create an 'x' stroke. This puts me in the 150 gram region. Like you, pressure at the beginning of the stroke is a lot less than at the end.

Based on our meet yesterday, I'm now ever so slightly supporting the scale with my right pinky as well. This adjustment gets me to the 10-20 gram region. I had a very, very nice shave this morning.

I'm going to keep working it until I get to Jorge levels (1-5 grams), and see what that does for me.

jgjgjg - That's Great! I'm glad that someone has benefitted from this post!!!! I was thinking it might have been for not...
The way I see it no matter what you use to measure "pressure" you can teach yourself to lighten up with a simple scale.
I know it helped me out, I've lightened up and thanks to a comment that was made in this thread I have also slowed down my stroke too.