Thread: Bevel setting issue in the middle

Originally Posted by Mikali

So you are using the scratch pattern as a guidance for your progression then ?

Basically yes. Setting the bevel I check and see if I am reaching the edge all along the blade and that the two bevels meet all along the blade. All that is done with a loupe and goose neck light to inspect the edge. If you aren't sure if you are reaching the edge, that is where the magic marker trick comes in. It makes it easier to see if you are missing getting to the edge.

Once I am satisfied that the two bevels meet I will see if it easily cuts arm hair all along the edge. If it doesn't back to the bevel setter for a few strokes and check again. If it cuts all along the edge it is off to the next hone and so on till the finisher. You can have a brilliantly polished bevel and still not quite have the bevel set. Getting the bevel set is the most important part of the honing, all else is just refining the initial edge.

That is the simplified version. With blades with problems it takes a lot longer to learn how to read them and learn how to deal with their problems. Blades with problems are not easy to hone.

Bob

I just recently started to watch water for undercutting. For the longest time I was only looking at stria and what I saw under the loupe. The technique doesn't really work with a Norton 1K, the stone needs to be re-wet by the 10th stroke. Is the blade undercutting because the bevel meets, or is it simply doing that because my stroke is fast and the wave rode up the blade? Sometimes it can be tough to read. It's interesting, but not as definitive as flipping the blade up and looking directly down at the edge under a loupe to see if the bevel meets. Such is my opinion at any rate, someone with a more steady even paced stroke might be better at reading the wave than I am and find it a more useful tool.

Suction is hit and miss. Some blades do it. Some don't. Some hones do it, some don't. If I take a straight bladed razor to my coticule I can get it to stick. I've never felt that on a Welsh Slate or my Arkansas stones, at least not while using water. Nothing sticks to the Norton 1K or 4K, they're too porous, and the 8K only gets a tiny bit of drag. I've never felt a smiling razor stick to anything. But suction doesn't tell you anything about whether or not your edges meet, only that your hone has likely polished all that it can as the two surfaces are now so flat that surface contact (thus friction) between them is maximized.

I actively try to prevent suction as that leads to skipping/chattering and that, in my opinion at least, could be detrimental to my honing efforts.

Originally Posted by Mikali

Here I am again
Finally managed to have an even "wave" in front of the edge on the 1K.
It also pops 1 hair on the arm at all 3 points.
Also the TNT feels smooth and digs in. This make me THINK the bevel is set, however there is no undercut, only the "puddle" of water moving evenly.
So when is it ok to proceed to the next shapton stone? I've read and watched a lot and there is the undercut and there is the "suction" feeling that should tell the progression.
Are both indicators required on the 1K or at a later stage?

The trick of the system is that as the edge gets more refined (Higher Gits / Smoother slurry) the ripple will undercut all by itself..

It doesn't tell you how sharp your edge is, it tells you how smooth your stoke is, and if you are using enough pressure while honing

If that ripple goes bye bye you are not honing the edge you are just wasting steel behind the edge,, There are two forces combining at the edge while honing..
We tend to not talk about one because most people don't understand it

Downward pressure Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah we have all heard it over and over

But Torque is actually the important one and you can read both by "Riding the Wave"

But no,, the idea that the wave or even suction (Which doesn't happen on all grinds) can determine keenness ain't gonna happen


ps: One of the funniest things I remember reading on SRP back in the old days and I can't remember who said it

"Dude I can hone just fine, I just need to learn when to stop"

[QUOTE=gssixgun;

But Torque is actually the important one and you can read both by "Riding the Wave"

Exactly, Glenn.
Too much downward pressure causes excessive spine wear. But torque to the edge, with just enough downward pressure to keep the blade flat is the key. I'm trying to shave a slice out of the stone, not spreading butter.

[QUOTE=outback;1760337][QUOTE=gssixgun;

But Torque is actually the important one and you can read both by "Riding the Wave"

Exactly, Glenn.
Too much downward pressure causes excessive spine wear. But torque to the edge, with just enough downward pressure to keep the blade flat is the key. I'm trying to shave a slice out of the stone, not spreading butter.[/QUOTE]
Aha, but that wording I like, "slicing", will give that "visualization" a try.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

The trick of the system is that as the edge gets more refined (Higher Gits / Smoother slurry) the ripple will undercut all by itself..

It doesn't tell you how sharp your edge is, it tells you how smooth your stoke is, and if you are using enough pressure while honing

If that ripple goes bye bye you are not honing the edge you are just wasting steel behind the edge,, There are two forces combining at the edge while honing..
We tend to not talk about one because most people don't understand it

Downward pressure Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah we have all heard it over and over

But Torque is actually the important one and you can read both by "Riding the Wave"

But no,, the idea that the wave or even suction (Which doesn't happen on all grinds) can determine keenness ain't gonna happen


ps: One of the funniest things I remember reading on SRP back in the old days and I can't remember who said it

"Dude I can honing just fine, I just need to learn when to stop"

Ok, good to read it doesn't/shouldn't happen on all grits. I was kinda waiting for it LOL

I figure I will try to see more through my loupe as well, because in all honestly I must admit I can't see much difference in scratch patterns yet ... it all looks the same, scratches, nicely uniform ...
I'm actually starting to think I might be overhoning.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

The trick of the system is that as the edge gets more refined (Higher Gits / Smoother slurry) the ripple will undercut all by itself..

It doesn't tell you how sharp your edge is, it tells you how smooth your stoke is, and if you are using enough pressure while honing

If that ripple goes bye bye you are not honing the edge you are just wasting steel behind the edge,, There are two forces combining at the edge while honing..
We tend to not talk about one because most people don't understand it

Downward pressure Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah we have all heard it over and over

But Torque is actually the important one and you can read both by "Riding the Wave"

But no,, the idea that the wave or even suction (Which doesn't happen on all grinds) can determine keenness ain't gonna happen


ps: One of the funniest things I remember reading on SRP back in the old days and I can't remember who said it

"Dude I can hone just fine, I just need to learn when to stop"

Originally Posted by Mikali

Ok, good to read it doesn't/shouldn't happen on all grits. I was kinda waiting for it LOL

I figure I will try to see more through my loupe as well, because in all honestly I must admit I can't see much difference in scratch patterns yet ... it all looks the same, scratches, nicely uniform ...
I'm actually starting to think I might be overhoning.

Mikali...I think Glenn meant it does not happen on all GRINDS not GRITS...and that is understandable and logic...learn things right ok

DFS, DFS, D F S gentlemen!
What did I change this time?
- lightning ! Now I could actually watch the water, and the edge with my 20x loupe
- torque, this was what I was lacking, for sure ! even on the higher grits I thought no pressure, just rest the razor and "pet" the stone.
Not ... Lightly torque the razor made all of the difference, after 10 strokes I finally felt this drag

Long story short, went all the way till the 20K (something odd there but I'll let it be for now), stropped and shaved.
This time even ATG in my neck went well, could be smoother but it was quite good and the alum did no sting

I would very much want to thank everyone for participating in my topic, and for the great help and advice !

It feels wonderful to finally have accomplished "it".

PS: in a couple of months I look back at this thread and most likely will be thinking to myself, you have only discovered the tip of the iceberg

Originally Posted by Mikali

Ok, good to read it doesn't/shouldn't happen on all grits. I was kinda waiting for it LOL

I figure I will try to see more through my loupe as well, because in all honestly I must admit I can't see much difference in scratch patterns yet ... it all looks the same, scratches, nicely uniform ...
I'm actually starting to think I might be overhoning.

The scratch pattern made by a bevel setting hone is deeper and coarser than the higher grit hones. The scratch pattern should extent out to the edge. If it does not you are not honing the edge. The two bevels must meet all along the edge so that the edge reflects no light when viewed with a loupe under a strong light source. When that happens the bevel is set and should cut arm hairs all along the edge.

Then you go to the next hone and erase all the heavy scratches/stria made by the bevel setter. The shallower less coarse scratch marks of the new hone should extent to the edge also. The edge examined under a loupe and strong light source should not reflect light. When that happens you go to the next higher grit hone and so on till you finish on you finishing hone. By that time the bevels should appear polished and the edge still does not reflecting light.

As you go up the progression you use less and less pressure/torque.

Bob

Good to see you got it. I type too slow.