Now I understand why there's so many high heeled razors on the bay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTV4ph1LE3c
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Now I understand why there's so many high heeled razors on the bay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTV4ph1LE3c
This video is 5 years old. We've already been through the pros and cons.
Mr. Carter even made a follow up video explaining his methodology after a challenge from Brad (undream22). Then Tom Blodgett from Jende Industries made a massive blog post about this method with high level magnification.
This method does work with tweaking, to each honer's needs. I.e. with skill and knowing what you're doing is critical or yes it could lead to a high heel.
There are sides that think this method is assbackwards and those that think it's a new way of doing things.
I have been playing with this method for a few days actually.
2 ready for a test shave tonight.
Blaming one man (an ABS master bladesmith) for other's inability to hone a razor is unfair to him.
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Ooo...this is gonna be atreat for you....
https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com...ination-stone/
Thank me later...
Todd couldn't pull it off. Once again technique vs tools. Read his end comment...Quote:
Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga
Murray's first video was edited.
When you post something assume that person has already read what you're presenting.
Thanks for doing a terrible job of trying to once again disprove a proven method.
"The above results should not be generalized to predict the capabilities of this sharpening technique."
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I am sorry I upset you...
That was not my intention.
I have no way of knowing what you have read and read not before.
Judjing by that algorithm you should asume I already knew you had an inflamable temper and I did this just to upset you...
That's not a correct way of thinking or treating people.
I just spent 30minutes of my life re reading the test and coments....again...came to the same conclusion.
..MC is a nice guy that makes great stuff...his technique may work for some people with moderate expectations...not my cup of tea...there are more civilised ways of dooing things...but hell to each his own...do what makes you happy...
Just dont make other people feel bad about trying to help.
...and mind that temper....I see you edited the post.
It didn't upset me at all. It was actually a treat for me as you'd say.
Where you are wrong is saying "may work" and "moderate expectations".
I read this as either you cannot achieve or do not want to achieve great results with a tweaked variation of this method. Dismissing it as uncivilized is quite the cop out blanket statement.
Reading the results of a single man's test is different from actually doing something. Do you believe everything you read no questions asked?
"...and mind that temper...." who are you again?
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You know what the stupid thing is...I started writing a reply to the person that started the thread.
Before I found the link...it took me a while as I have not read the whole story for some years...you got to post...and mine came straight after that...then your response.
So bad timing...
Aniway..to answer your question...
Nobody...i'm nobody.
Have a nice day!
If you're razors are nothing but a "tool", where the idea of wearing them down and eventually just tossing them is your thing, then his method is probably fine.
Would I take a pristine Wade & Butcher, or a Mappin Bros., Lancet Edge razor, a fine Tamahagane Japanese razor, or any other fine razors and perform that sharpening technique on them...not in a million years.
And his claim that tape, completely destroys the geometry of a razor has been debunked many times.
I was also taught to treat my tools with respect, and they in turn will provide me with years and years of service.
I can't see how "grinding" away at a razor the way he does shows much respect for the tool...but as always, if it works for him and others, fair enough.
But I can't just help but wonder, what would a virtually NOS vintage Sheffield blade look like when he was done with it...think there'd be some spine wear / damage???
You could have just said that from the start instead of asking me to adjust my choice of words. We would have had quite a different conversation.
Anyways ill leave this here.
https://jendeindustries.wordpress.co...unding-debate/
And
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...say-about.html
Incase you are generally interested in this topic.
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Just a few thoughts on your thoughts. Ymmv and all that fun pointless stuff we bicker about here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrank
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I just finished...thank you...if I read them again i'm gonna be sick.
After I saw your second reply I had no idea why you behaved like that so I went back and checked the post from the begining.
I saw that the person who was answering was not the person I was talking to...so I let you know we were arguing useless.
I have tested the method...a few years ago...
I got a good shave. It works...but how well it works depends on your standing point.
From where I stand that is the way I see it...sadly it works but it has so many disadvantages and the result is a few steps back from what I am used to.
So...you see i cant use it on my razors...I would be wasting metal.
My moto is to remove the minimum amount of metal and get the maximum out of the edge...you enjoy the razor longer that way and ... maybe someone else after you are no more gets to enjoy it.
Also with my setup I can achieve good edges.
I never had a client complain and I have done 1k+razors.
Now, please, relax...no one is doing anything to the mothod...if it makes you happy...use it... it works for some....just be civilised about it.
I never doubted your abilities or how comfortable and repeatable your methods were. A lot of people get in a reliable routine and never deviate save the finish stone. That's awesome but that muscle memory also makes it harder to step outside of it. Especially on such a seemingly rudimentary approach.
I usually don't use the method I just don't enjoy seeing a method constantly bashed before a person learns it's nuances.
In example I've been honing on coticule for 3 years now. It's not an easy method to master. Not unlike this method. I've read many posts of people stating coticule edges are this, that and the rest of it. I can't hone on my coticule. My coticule sucks...
Well if that certain method was mastered by the user things would be different.
This method only uses the 1k to set the bevel not unlike every other method. It also uses minimal strokes after that. This is not a touch up.. A full honing after an edge is completely flattened by running it edge down on a 1k king.
That was a useless argument but we've got better understanding now and there is more information available for those just tuning in to this never ending saga of Murray Carter's method.
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Oh...I had my fun experimenting with stones...techniques and steel...
I had the priviledge of testing many razors and stones.
Last 6-7years have been kind to me...honing and doing restores for other ppl has its advantages...you get to try the razors for free...and you get to invest it in buying what you like...like more stones and razors.
I have satisfied all my curiosity about this matter on natural and sinthetic stones...I only keep a few stones [email protected] ones I considered fited best my needs and skill.
You will reach certain maturity as an user when you will not have to buy to test...but buy to enjoy because you will get to know exactly what to expect from the item you bought.
Same is with technique...you need to try them all and you stop once you find what works best for you...
Sadest thing is when you cant stop at all...some ppl eagerly awayt for the 640.000 grit particle to be split in 2 :)..and some can never rest while there is a better option.
But hell what do I k ow. Like I said...I'm just a nobody.
If you wa t to see some of my stones and past resto work you're welcomed to add me on fb.
If I may opine as a novice shaver and honer, what strikes me most about this video and the discussion its generated is that in this gentleman's preamble he describes his method of honing as "orthodox". Regardless of this method's potential merits and pitfalls, the conversation and debate sparked in regards to it would belay this description.
Learning how to personally hone the razors I use daily (such as I'm able so far) I have found a thoroughly subjective experience. I wouldn't be able to shave with a straight razor or hone at all if it weren't for the information learnt from this forum, its honemeisters and other online sources. I started by buying truly shave-ready razors whose edges I've continued to maintain and shave with. Then, when I learnt to hone, I found few experiences more enriching (and challenging) than combining techniques learnt in many different places to hone a razor from dull edge to my personal satisfaction. I was so excited to hone a razor myself to a sharpness vaguely comparable to the shave-ready razors I acquired early on and was ecstatic when I was able to produce an edge that I found sharp and more comfortable than those I'd received from professionals. Now, if I was to send the razors I've honed to those professionals who honed my first razors, they may be appalled by the edges I'd produced, but they worked for me.
If I'm not open to new and different techniques, I'll not have much room to improve my honing. We shouldn't poo-poo something just because it's different. It can be misleading, however, to presuppose your favourite technique as 'orthodox' and widely applicable.
Glad it worked out for you!Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorNick
Honing is a journey...we all are at diffrent points on that journey...when your options are opened...you are curious of how far you can reach....when you have exausted your options...the only thing to do is look back, enjoy and help others.
For a example....in my coticule period...I have bought owned and tested over 50-60 coticules. In a few years. I bought-tested-kept the best and sold the rest and repeated it until I could no longer find stones better then the ones I had......that's more cotis tested then some users will se in a lifetime.
Did I learn something?...yes...I know how to pick/buy and use a coticule enough to corectly teach oters.
Will I buy another?...certenly not out of curiosity....but if I see something special then sure...
Same principle applyes to technique...when you are growing...experiment...try...variate techniques...find out what fits your skills and style best....and think of ways to improve it....until you can no longer improve....and either settle wit what you got or go to the next level...
...sadly in honing there seems to always be a next level...synthetics...jnats...CBN...Poli diamond...roo and microfiber...some bring more to the game then others though.
About four years ago, I watched all the popular honing videos, including Murray Carter's video, that is talked about here. I was interested to know more and so I emailed Murray, and he took the time to explain his views on honing. I am richer for that knowledge. We are lucky to have SRP as a resource for improving our honing skills, however for civility you need to look elsewhere.....lol
There are certain things that I have played around with in honing that are part of the MC technique. The back and forth or Japanese stroke I use, not like he does them, but I do use them. Initially I used them only on low grit hones as I had believed them to be grinding strokes. I am terrible with names so I won't try to say who had used it as a technique, but it was pointed out to me that a well know Japanese blade master used the same general style of stroke as a finishing stroke. So I tried it on my high grit hones too. Japnanese strokes are effective for sure. I'm not sure why the board, but many people do straighten an edge, or lightly kill it, or joint it on a thumb nail as part of their regular honing routine. MC video makes the process look pretty haywire and I am going to say it is poor representation of probable material.
First off: No, I don't create burrs while honing and yes, I use half-strokes (back-and-forth strokes) pretty much exclusively up until finishing an edge, but that is quite inconsequential to the discussion.
I remember the original thread after the Murray Carter video had just surfaced. I was extremely skeptical of his method, but changed my stance because it clearly worked for him (and for others, as became apparent later on).
Just because a method seems unconventional is no reason to unambiguously bash it, which happened in that thread (referred to by SolitarySoldier).
It was a shocking case of "Gentlemanly behaviour, YMMV, but not really."
Best regards,
Pieter
Before writing the opening post I did a forum search but did not find JimR's post so that is why I brought this video up.
The 2 things that struck me watching the video were the amount of pressure he seems to apply and that he puts more effort into honing the toe end of the blade than the heel end. If you use his methods on the same razor over and over again you will end up with a razor with a honed down toe. Like many blades we see on ebay.
Being a well respected bladesmith does not make you a good razor honer. Newbies who want to try their hand at honing should realize this when watching his video.
It is not my intention to bash anyone. But this is what we do here all the time: commenting on the input of others with the aim of improving one another's technique. Using a technique that gets you a shave-ready razor does prove your technique is right. If you manage to get safely from A to B in an urban area driving 150mph only proves you are a skilled driver. But doning so all the time is wrong because it puts you at a much higher risk of having a serious accident.
IMHO his video should carry a "DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME" warning.
Many of the abused western razors wit an overhone toe come out of japan.
AFIK...the high pressure back and forth technique was used by bladesmiths for metal removal while forming the blade...they had much metal to remove...
On the other hand a razor with good geometry needs minimum amount of metal removal...
So taking that technique to a razor is like taking a percution power dril to work...but you're a dentist.
So that's why I belive there is a better way of doing things.
Bevelset once with no tape and aid of marker to adjust the stroke and stopp when you hit the apex.
Remove the minimum amount of metal in the process.
Test the edge on arm hair and under magnification.
90%there
The rest is progressing to a finisher...some add tape after the bevelset...some dont.
Stropp...oil...hht...shave test.
All you need to know right there....the principles. You can add or improve on these but I belive that is the essence of properly honing a razor.
No need to create a burr just to rip it out...
No need to brutalize the poor blade...
No need to cutt of your belt for stropping...
Or read the newspaper.
Or drag your fingers along the edge...damn isometimes have 10-20blades in for hining I cant imagine putting my finger tips on all of them after bevel set and finishing the calculated risc of something wrong happening in high...either to the razor or your hand...one should never touch the edge of a finished razor...for multiple reasons....acidity of swet...impurities and abrasive particles stuck to the skin while using the stones....iwasaki promoted washing of hands and razor before changing grit...
But I guess shaving with a spoon getting the spirits restless then dropping the bomb on the spoon is just his style.
I can see how any kind of attention is good for business
With respect to drawing it through wood, that's a knife honer's technique. Heavy handed half-strokes and edge trailing strokes will more than likely draw out a burr. Knife honers do this intentionally because they can feel the burr with their finger pads and know when the bevel is 'set.' Notice how he feathers the edge with his finger tips to feel for the burr. Drawing the edge through wood will knock off that weak metal.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
The issue to me isn't his half strokes or where he focuses on the blade. I'm sure he gave the toe the attention it needed and wasn't just mindlessly grinding away steel. Raising a burr and knocking it off with wood has the potential to break away metal and damage the edge the honer was working to create. This wouldn't matter for chisels, kitchen knives, or any other tool because they will still cut well but a razor needs to shave comfortably and to do that the edge needs to be pristine. So if one damages it drawing the blade through wood, they've set themselves up to go back to a lower grit hone. If they go back to a lower grit hone and use edge trailing strokes they may draw up a burr and have to draw it through wood again. Depending on the razor steel and user technique this could be a rather vicious cycle.
So to me the question then is what's the advantage? You could just finish with normal edge leading strokes that don't raise a burr, that will erase any burr raised by half-strokes, and completely bypass drawing the edge through wood. To me it just seems more efficient to avoid raising a burr all together, and that is why I stopped utilizing techniques of that nature. Not just on my razors, but on my chisels and knives as well. You can completely skip the 'Do this to knock off a burr, then this to finalize the edge' step and just be done with it.
In my country there is an old saying that goes well with this technique...
In translation it doesnt sound that funny...
Goes something like this...
''Scratching behind the year with the other hand''
Meaning you get things done going around the head...
Witch is pretty similar to what this technique does....gets things done but in athe matter that is not straight forward.
My 2 cents.
So.............., How did it go? I'll admit being skeptical of this method, but I will be interested in hearing your results. If I had a chance I would try shaving with a razor honed by Murry.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
I would think that Murry is indeed creating a second burr, after knocking off the bevel setting burr with the wood, and then removing this (finishing) burr with the CrOx. We already know that using CrOx can cover a lot of poor honing, 'even sharpen dull razors'.
We have beat this guy up on this forum quite a bit. I think this is the third thread on this. Just for clarification, he is doing a terrible job honing that razor. There are several websperts with terrible honing videos. If you actually know how to hone you might gleam a worthy idea from one of them. However there are very few who I recommend their techniques.
I also see very little reason to validate this honing style as anything but a sort of parlor trick demonstrating a possible but highly improbable option to honing a razor. How many people actually do this? Most folks through out all of Razordom seem to be looking for refinement and seeking a high quality shave. Tireless seeking of the highest quality stones and materials possible for themselves to achieve "That Edge" they want or crave. We look at historical success and tradition as guidance, new stones and techniques often scrutinized and tested over and over until they either live or die by their own merit. It doesn't make sense based on what I see most people aiming for or proud of achieving. Its like someone saying" here this is best method, run this bastard file over your razor scrape off the bumpy stuff with wood and Crox will fix the thing later then just shave dry." I don't see why this method is treated as anything but an anomaly. Take whats good from it I imagine but its very limited.
Honestly. It went well. This was the second razor I have honed using a tweaked variation of his method with no finishing stone. Save the newspaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman7
The shave I got today was smooth and surprisingly comfortable.
This method is reliant on pressure which is something none of us can replicate because we are not Mr. Carter. Which can make using it harder then the generic no pressure "feathering" that's usually fed to new honers. Pressure is the devil Bobby Boucher. While I understand we wouldn't want a newb flexing and grinding the shat out of a razor pressure is highly beneficial when controlling and using it to our will but takes a learned hand.
In the science of sharp blog our fellow honer posted further up that started a little argument it's shown that when He (the author) drew His edge through a piece of redwood the burr did not get torn off rather bent over. Which is up for a debate in itself if a burr does get ripped off drawing it through wood.
So theoretically the burr could still be there the whole time until the razor is stropped on leather.
In the science of sharp blog it is after it's drawn through wood and stropped on the 6k that the burr is broken off leaving a flat at the apex in his second attempt.
What I don't agree with is his results. My razors through this technique have been shave ready.
I don't know why more people don't try this, with a 1k stone and a 4-6k and some crox?
He may not be doing the greatest job at honing a razor but I don't see the downside in trying this method with of course a little experience honing conventionally whatever that means.
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1. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorfaust
2. How many people use your "exact" setup?
3. Are we that closed minded to see nothing of merit in this video?
Not trying to be confrontational this time I'm just honestly trying to figure out your rationalization for these things you've written.
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1. He may be the finest Japanese blade smith ever born but he doesn't act like one. He comes across as a cheap carnival act looking to wow you with cheap tricks so you qualify him as your leader in blades and buy all his stuff and lectures. If I want to see guys shaving with spoons, axes and lawnmower blades I can just surf the Russian Youtube channels and be entertained by their manly skills. I could probably scratch a razor on a couple of hones in any direction willy nilly and do a thorough stropping on croxed belt and get it to shave. Sorry but i'm not looking for any of that but don't let me discourage anyone that is intrigued. I don't feel i'm getting an education from this.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
2. Your right no one uses my setup, I use everyone elses but I doubt many use the man in questions setup at all. Maybe the fanboys, I dunno.
3.Yes I saw a guy showing off his neck knife. It was pretty nice.
As far as me being rational now your pushing it. :p
Interesting, turns out this Murray Carter is Canadian, and is absolutely an acclaimed knife maker and bladesmith.
While I agree his methods may not suit a cherished heirloom razor or for those who collect with the idea to preserve, he seems to be going for a purely functional dynamic in terms of getting something sharp quickly and using it - repeat when necessary.
But the guy is certainly quite renowned, article about him in one of Canada's National newspapers, The Globe and Mail:
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/lif...beandmail.com&
Ok so i gave this video one more chance and viewed it carefully. To my horror I realized when he is on the 1k stone flailing away trying to get a burr on the edge he has is fingers planted near the center of the blade near the edge applying pressure. He doesn't off set the angle of the blade and it looks to me hes got the blade going straight forward and back. With pressure favoring the center of the razor this is a great way to hone a frown into the blade do this vigorously with enough pressure to remove steel to form a burr and that's what will start happening to the razor. Put that razor with this information into the hands of a new guy and I'm sure that's what will happen.
Sorry but this technique is not suitable for a new guy its too aggressive and would result in someone who repeats this process enough times to sending his precious razor to be repaired cause he messed it up.
My two cents.
Again thanks for giving us a report on your findings.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
I would also be curious about the longevity of edges prepared this way.
A comment on Murry's videos. He goes to great length in the rebuttal video describing how a hanging stop rounds the edge, but when watching the shaving video I felt that at quite a few times he was shaving at very high shave angles, and not just under the nose (90 degrees at one point on the jowl). IME high shave angles round the edge on a micro level. This is why new shavers dull their blades so much faster than experienced shavers. I think that Murry has the habit of high shave angles from all of his trick shaving with inappropriate tools which have obtuse bevel angles and require high angles to shave.
I'm interested in the longevity too so I'll keep this razor going only with a leather strop and report back at edge failure. I.e. pulling or discomfort.
I agree with you about pressure. When I say pressure I don't mean bearing down on the razor to flex it. That is no good. I mean using enough force and slightly torque the blade so the abrasive cuts faster. I don't know about others but I vary my pressure start to finish. Heavier to lighter.
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We do not know that he is simply flailing away. I'm sure everything this man does is a calculated action. He is establishing his primary edge (Setting the bevel) in an aggressive manner but surely he's not mindlessly grinding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorfaust
He does move the razor to grind different parts of the blade. Toe, center and heel. I have viewed the video too.
What we can agree on is that it's probably not the least aggressive way to hone a razor but if you already have experience honing or dare I say the will to learn and tailor this method with your stones and your technique. It shouldn't be unachievable for anyone.
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I have been watching this guys videos for years. I'm dead sure he has skilled hands and is sensitive enough to judge whats happening to an edge. Not my point. He approaches the straight razor very much the same as he approaches any of his kitchen knives when he sharpens and this is where I disagree with his approach from the perspective of a new comer to honing a razor. I just believe that the things he demonstrates can get a new guy at this in trouble fast. I am of the opinion that when it comes to razors things should move slowly at the beginning when it comes to razors I'm all about less is more and mindful removal of steel. Once one has a lot of experience maybe then you can experiment " Nuclear Option" steel removal, burr formation and of that for a quick fix edge. For me and I bet most new guys this method is not helpful full of pitfalls and potentially destructive. I will not argue that Mr. Carter can or cant pull it off. I just don't see it as the best way to put a high quality edge on a razor. Look this is a "How To" video most certainly aimed at noobs and all i see is danger waiting for them. Just how i feel aint saying no more.
At the first Denver meet that I went to, I asked Glen about raising a burr during the bevel set. The look that he gave me now makes sense :rofl2:. I think it was shortly after the whole Murry Carter thing had happened and I'll bet this is what came to his mind.
Same question can be asked about you seeing how you are attacking anyone that does not agree with your views of Carter's method.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
Lets calm down here and act in a civilized manner so that the thread can continue its existence.
I'm not attacking people. I'm simply voicing my opinions on the video like we all do. Mine however does not line up with most people and I don't sugar coat things..Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
I do not care what people use to hone their straight razors. That's up to them. I do however get sick of a world reknowned Canadian born knife maker being strung up and beat like a pinata because he's got different views then the razor community.
I guess you're a little late to the party because we already kissed and made up earlier in the thread.
I appreciate you looking out for the forum's best interest. That's what I love about SRP.
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Who is stringing him up? No one has brought him up to put him down as far as I remember, the guy is irrelevant in the razor honing circles, he is a knife maker and sharpener.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
Here is some history which you may not be familiar with. Carter started making kamisori at one point, and gave up pretty fast when folks started complaining that they were not performing properly, that is a fact.
Someone from this forum posted and invitation to a razor meet, in a comment to one of Carter's honing videos, that member was banned and the post deleted. That is a fact. This was not a one sided affair. I am not sure if you were around when this topic was discussed here on the forum, but Carter would argue points that make no sense as far as razors are concerned.
You went off on another member as well, and if you read carefully no one made up, most times it is just wiser to not bang one's head against the wall. The wall will not move no matter what.Quote:
I guess you're a little late to the party because we already kissed and made up earlier in the thread.
Thank youQuote:
I appreciate you looking out for the forum's best interest. That's what I love about SRP.
I could continue this argument but it has undoubtedly run it's course.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Guys, can we just agree to dissagree here...
We are indeed intiteled to our own opinions.
And we can sustain our opinions with arguments in a civilised way.
A lot of people come heare to learn about razors and honing and the direction this thread is going is not constructive for the comunity or newcommers.
Yess Solitarysoldier did have a inflamable temper about my opinion even thoug I was not adressing him at the moment...but i'm sure if I would have repplied with a queto to the user who opened the topic the discussion may have had a diffrent course.
About kissing and making up...I realy dont care that much about this things...we are not friends nor famili for making up to matter.
I came to SRP knowing little and beeing a part of this comunity made me learn and grow...it has helped me a lot...especialy in helping others get their way around whet shaving and not making the same mistakes I made.
It cost me a small fortune to get trough he blades and hones I did and thousands of hours of restoring and honing...
If I post something I want what i say to help people the same way I was helped when I came here...I always try to sustain my posts with facts and arguments from the start to avoid further discution.
If anyone can learn ...fine...if they dont agree ...thats fine too as long as we are civilised about it.
I never escalated a conflict and never will...
Let's move on...nothing to see here:))