Thread: Honemeister at work

Originally Posted by RezDog

There are certain things that I have played around with in honing that are part of the MC technique. The back and forth or Japanese stroke I use, not like he does them, but I do use them. Initially I used them only on low grit hones as I had believed them to be grinding strokes. I am terrible with names so I won't try to say who had used it as a technique, but it was pointed out to me that a well know Japanese blade master used the same general style of stroke as a finishing stroke. So I tried it on my high grit hones too. Japnanese strokes are effective for sure. I'm not sure why the board, but many people do straighten an edge, or lightly kill it, or joint it on a thumb nail as part of their regular honing routine. MC video makes the process look pretty haywire and I am going to say it is poor representation of probable material.

With respect to drawing it through wood, that's a knife honer's technique. Heavy handed half-strokes and edge trailing strokes will more than likely draw out a burr. Knife honers do this intentionally because they can feel the burr with their finger pads and know when the bevel is 'set.' Notice how he feathers the edge with his finger tips to feel for the burr. Drawing the edge through wood will knock off that weak metal.

The issue to me isn't his half strokes or where he focuses on the blade. I'm sure he gave the toe the attention it needed and wasn't just mindlessly grinding away steel. Raising a burr and knocking it off with wood has the potential to break away metal and damage the edge the honer was working to create. This wouldn't matter for chisels, kitchen knives, or any other tool because they will still cut well but a razor needs to shave comfortably and to do that the edge needs to be pristine. So if one damages it drawing the blade through wood, they've set themselves up to go back to a lower grit hone. If they go back to a lower grit hone and use edge trailing strokes they may draw up a burr and have to draw it through wood again. Depending on the razor steel and user technique this could be a rather vicious cycle.

So to me the question then is what's the advantage? You could just finish with normal edge leading strokes that don't raise a burr, that will erase any burr raised by half-strokes, and completely bypass drawing the edge through wood. To me it just seems more efficient to avoid raising a burr all together, and that is why I stopped utilizing techniques of that nature. Not just on my razors, but on my chisels and knives as well. You can completely skip the 'Do this to knock off a burr, then this to finalize the edge' step and just be done with it.

In my country there is an old saying that goes well with this technique...
In translation it doesnt sound that funny...
Goes something like this...
''Scratching behind the year with the other hand''

Meaning you get things done going around the head...
Witch is pretty similar to what this technique does....gets things done but in athe matter that is not straight forward.

My 2 cents.

Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

I have been playing with this method for a few days actually.

2 ready for a test shave tonight.

So.............., How did it go? I'll admit being skeptical of this method, but I will be interested in hearing your results. If I had a chance I would try shaving with a razor honed by Murry.

I would think that Murry is indeed creating a second burr, after knocking off the bevel setting burr with the wood, and then removing this (finishing) burr with the CrOx. We already know that using CrOx can cover a lot of poor honing, 'even sharpen dull razors'.

We have beat this guy up on this forum quite a bit. I think this is the third thread on this. Just for clarification, he is doing a terrible job honing that razor. There are several websperts with terrible honing videos. If you actually know how to hone you might gleam a worthy idea from one of them. However there are very few who I recommend their techniques.

I also see very little reason to validate this honing style as anything but a sort of parlor trick demonstrating a possible but highly improbable option to honing a razor. How many people actually do this? Most folks through out all of Razordom seem to be looking for refinement and seeking a high quality shave. Tireless seeking of the highest quality stones and materials possible for themselves to achieve "That Edge" they want or crave. We look at historical success and tradition as guidance, new stones and techniques often scrutinized and tested over and over until they either live or die by their own merit. It doesn't make sense based on what I see most people aiming for or proud of achieving. Its like someone saying" here this is best method, run this bastard file over your razor scrape off the bumpy stuff with wood and Crox will fix the thing later then just shave dry." I don't see why this method is treated as anything but an anomaly. Take whats good from it I imagine but its very limited.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

So.............., How did it go? I'll admit being skeptical of this method, but I will be interested in hearing your results. If I had a chance I would try shaving with a razor honed by Murry.

I would think that Murry is indeed creating a second burr, after knocking off the bevel setting burr with the wood, and then removing this (finishing) burr with the CrOx. We already know that using CrOx can cover a lot of poor honing, 'even sharpen dull razors'.

Honestly. It went well. This was the second razor I have honed using a tweaked variation of his method with no finishing stone. Save the newspaper.

The shave I got today was smooth and surprisingly comfortable.

This method is reliant on pressure which is something none of us can replicate because we are not Mr. Carter. Which can make using it harder then the generic no pressure "feathering" that's usually fed to new honers. Pressure is the devil Bobby Boucher. While I understand we wouldn't want a newb flexing and grinding the shat out of a razor pressure is highly beneficial when controlling and using it to our will but takes a learned hand.

In the science of sharp blog our fellow honer posted further up that started a little argument it's shown that when He (the author) drew His edge through a piece of redwood the burr did not get torn off rather bent over. Which is up for a debate in itself if a burr does get ripped off drawing it through wood.

So theoretically the burr could still be there the whole time until the razor is stropped on leather.

In the science of sharp blog it is after it's drawn through wood and stropped on the 6k that the burr is broken off leaving a flat at the apex in his second attempt.

What I don't agree with is his results. My razors through this technique have been shave ready.

I don't know why more people don't try this, with a 1k stone and a 4-6k and some crox?

He may not be doing the greatest job at honing a razor but I don't see the downside in trying this method with of course a little experience honing conventionally whatever that means.
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Originally Posted by Razorfaust

1. I also see very little reason to validate this honing style as anything but a sort of parlor trick demonstrating a possible but highly improbable option to honing a razor.


2. How many people actually do this?

3. Take whats good from it I imagine but its very limited.

1. Why?

2. How many people use your "exact" setup?

3. Are we that closed minded to see nothing of merit in this video?

Not trying to be confrontational this time I'm just honestly trying to figure out your rationalization for these things you've written.

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

1. Why?

2. How many people use your "exact" setup?

3. Are we that closed minded to see nothing of merit in this video?

Not trying to be confrontational this time I'm just honestly trying to figure out your rationalization for these things you've written.

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1. He may be the finest Japanese blade smith ever born but he doesn't act like one. He comes across as a cheap carnival act looking to wow you with cheap tricks so you qualify him as your leader in blades and buy all his stuff and lectures. If I want to see guys shaving with spoons, axes and lawnmower blades I can just surf the Russian Youtube channels and be entertained by their manly skills. I could probably scratch a razor on a couple of hones in any direction willy nilly and do a thorough stropping on croxed belt and get it to shave. Sorry but i'm not looking for any of that but don't let me discourage anyone that is intrigued. I don't feel i'm getting an education from this.

2. Your right no one uses my setup, I use everyone elses but I doubt many use the man in questions setup at all. Maybe the fanboys, I dunno.

3.Yes I saw a guy showing off his neck knife. It was pretty nice.

As far as me being rational now your pushing it.

Interesting, turns out this Murray Carter is Canadian, and is absolutely an acclaimed knife maker and bladesmith.

While I agree his methods may not suit a cherished heirloom razor or for those who collect with the idea to preserve, he seems to be going for a purely functional dynamic in terms of getting something sharp quickly and using it - repeat when necessary.

But the guy is certainly quite renowned, article about him in one of Canada's National newspapers, The Globe and Mail:

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/lif...beandmail.com&

Ok so i gave this video one more chance and viewed it carefully. To my horror I realized when he is on the 1k stone flailing away trying to get a burr on the edge he has is fingers planted near the center of the blade near the edge applying pressure. He doesn't off set the angle of the blade and it looks to me hes got the blade going straight forward and back. With pressure favoring the center of the razor this is a great way to hone a frown into the blade do this vigorously with enough pressure to remove steel to form a burr and that's what will start happening to the razor. Put that razor with this information into the hands of a new guy and I'm sure that's what will happen.
Sorry but this technique is not suitable for a new guy its too aggressive and would result in someone who repeats this process enough times to sending his precious razor to be repaired cause he messed it up.

My two cents.