Thread: simple honing under the stereo scope

Fantastic video Joe.

I love the way you take one of the major principals of knife sharpening, the burr, and apply it to razor honing.
Just watching the edge develop on the scope is proof that it works.

I'm looking forward to the shave report.

Pete <:-}

Joe, What power were you using on your scope? Thanks for the vid. The edge did look good in the end. But I do like a more polished bevel without all the scratches. That's where the 12K or 20K come in. But I know you were just trying to show how to keep costs down on stones.

pete,

thanks!! when I first started honing, that was how I did it as it made the most sense to me and is pretty much foolproof.


Gasman,

thanks!! and it will be pretty interesting to see how many scratches are left after this week of use. I bet there wont be many. as I do 20-30 laps on the leather before each shave, and then 10-15 on the linen after a shave. shave every other day most of the time, so 2 weeks would be 7 shaves or so, which is 100 laps on linen and 200 on leather.

I took the lenses out just a couple minutes ago to check, and the camera piece is a 2x, the body of the scope is 0-4x, and then there is the camera and tv magnification. the tv is a 27". I thought I had the extra lense that screws into the bottom of the scope and doubles everything again, but now remember that I had taken it out as it gave me too much magnification to handhold things before I made the bowling ball base.


without pulling the razor and tv out, I would estimate that the edge bevel on that razor is about .050" wide, and the setup turns it into about 5" wide on the tv.


the camera is my wifes old Nikon d3400 I think, and has about 24 megapixel dohickeys, which means I don't lose resoloution in the magnification like I did with the little veho usb scope.


im planning on bringing it to the razor meet in Denver so we can play with it there

I think I spent about an hour trying to figure out what the magnification was I was using. And in the end, it was still a guess at around 90x. Be happy to see your setup at the meet. I was going to bring my USB scope to show mine too. And with Vic's microscope, we will have plenty for looking at. See you then.

Originally Posted by RezDog

I used to shave off my Norton 8K and get a very nice shaveable edge. In my early times here it was common to see people say there is no point in going to higher grit hones until you can get a good shave from an 8K.

I shaved off of a 6K yesterday. I was using my new Suehiro "Dual Stone." As 6K is the highest I got, I just thought I'd give it a shot. Just to see. No problems! I mean I did use my regular strop progression afterwards consisting of a run on a 1 micron diamond pasted felt pad, and then a run on the CrOx before hitting the linen and leather.

I can't say I'm surprised - I put on a great bevel. It all begins there.

Crazy.

I prefer a finer stone finish though. But sure, like you said, you can shave off an 8K. No worries at all.

Just to remind everyone there was a thread a while back that contained an experiment of shaving with a razor at each level of grit used. Glen would know where it is at. I tried it as I finally addressed doing my own honing (after a year of straight razor shaving). It was a revelation and an eye-opener and the best hands-on learning experience I ever had. Worth looking up and doing if you are new to the honing part of shaving with straights.

You are not shaving off a 6k edge, it is a 30k, .50um Chrome Oxide edge. With paste you can go much quicker and higher, with Nano grits.

The goal of bevel setting is not to produce a shaving edge, it is to,1) flatten the bevels, 2) set them at the correct angle and, 3)get them to meet at the edge. You can refine a 1k edge by altering pressure and technique, trailing or leading. But No-one will be shaving off a 1k edge, except those that shave with EDC knives.

The difference between edge trailing and edge leading is, with trailing you produce a burr and break it off, creating a microscopic ragged edge by stropping, leading you cut off the burr with each stroke and produce a straighter, stronger edge. Ragged edges work well for knives, tools and axes, with razors you also must consider the skin the bevel and edge ride on, not just the sharpness of cutting edge.

For hundreds of years guys have shaved very well, off natural stones and barber hones probably in the 6-8k range. Blue slate stones run the gamut from slate pavers to fine finisher like Vosgienne and Salmen finishing stones.

Natural stones are natural, the composition or each stone and grit are unknown. Some can finish. A 12k Naniwia can do it all from bevel set, chip removal to finish. Check out this post, (12K Super Stone Chip Removal/Bevel Set). If you want a one stone solution, but why?

Also, a lot of deep vertical scratches on your pre-honed razor bevel, and most probably chipping your edge, your strop needs cleaning or replacement. Improper stropping and grit on leather strops do much more edge damage than shaving. A properly honed edge, properly stropped will last a very long time. Stropping is very under rated.

.....leading you cut off the burr with each stroke and produce a straighter, stronger edge.

I like this idea. Joe was showing how the particles of the stone are forced into the edge and causing a ragged edge. BUT, This also makes for a stronger edge in the end after you progress thru the finer grits. It straightens the impacted edge and refines it straighter. Joe's theory is good and seems to work, but I think by edge leading, you would get a stronger, longer lasting edge.

JMO, from someone still learning. Both ideas are sound. But which one is best? I'd have to go with the way it has been done for decades, edge leading. But what do I know?

“Joe was showing how the particles of the stone are forced into the edge and causing a ragged edge. BUT, This also makes for a stronger edge in the end after you progress thru the finer grits. It straightens the impacted edge and refines it straighter.”

So, is the ragged edge from edge impact, or from the deep stria from the bevel setting stone that end in a divot, at the edge.

Each of the edge chips are followed by a deep stria, it is not edge impact damage. Look at the deep stria and follow it to the edge, if it ends in a chip it is the stria that was cut by the stone grit in the stone, not impact damage.

Slurry edge impact is along debated subject, but in my opinion false, at least in this example.

Which would be more likely to deform a steel edge, a microscopic flake of steel or grit particle floating in a liquid slurry or a grit particle imbedded into a stone and held fast by the binder? If a piece of steel is imbedded into the stone it will not only impact the edge, it will leave stria on the bevel, honed leading or trailing.

Perhaps at a microscopic level there is some sub- micron edge chipping, but not at a micron or larger level.

If steel has a memory, and you are breaking the burr off an edge, you are tearing the steel at the edge and causing damage/stress to the steel at the edge and below it. The goal for honing razors, is to make the edge as smooth as possible on both bevels, that will withstand cutting hair and STROPPING, and will feel smooth on the skin.

For a knife or tool edge we don’t care about the smoothness, just the cutting ability. Wood, paper and rope, does not complain.

Stropping, proper stropping will revive any damage done to an edge by shaving, but if the strop is dirty or too much pressure is used, especially at the flip, by wrist flipping as opposed to finger flipping or too much downward pressure, any edge will fail at the weakest point, where it has already been stressed. An edge trailing honed edge is full of stressed steel or at least more stressed material than an edge that is cleanly cut as opposed to torn.

So, while limited edge trailing honing can be use as a finishing technique, it is an inherently flawed method of honing for razors, building in stress and a less polished/keen edge than a progression of edge leading strokes.

Will it shave, yes. Will it last? For most that are heavy handed stroppers, it probably does not matter. Actually stropping on Chromium Oxide did more for the shave than the honing technique.

Do 2-300 laps on Chromium Oxide, and call me in the morning…

Originally Posted by caltoncutlery

jnatcat,

I like the idea of the cherry tomatoes for honing if you don't like the idea of using the burr. I think it was drmatt on youtube that I saw using grapes in the same way and it seems to work pretty well for him.

I picked up the cherry tomatoe thing from @doc226, I think he is the one that came up with this method and every video he’s done with bevel setting he uses a small cherry tomatoe as he always has them on hand is his house according to him his daughter loves them so that’s what I started doing along with a circle method and so far it’s working out pretty well, do I get the perfect edge every time .....nay nay I don’t but that only pushes me to figure out what I did wrong and how to correct it.

@doc226 along with @gsssixgun have been super helpful with there vids that they do and I always refresh my knowledge by viewing them over and over, and yes it’s always possible to relearn a skill that you thought you had by watching someone else that has forgot more about honing than I will ever know.