Thread: Scratch pattern off Norton 8k seems too rough

Originally Posted by gssixgun

How does it shave ????

Now if I was a betting man, screw that I am a betting man, I would look to the 4k as the issue, that hone has had issues since 2009 when they shifted production from the US to Mexico to Italy damn thing tosses errent grit faster than an MLB pitcher..

Regardless How does it shave ???

Try introducing a light slurry to the 8k finish,,, dilute out as you finish, and let the hone dry to a damp state almost dry ..

There are many tricks to wringing quite an edge out of the Norton 8k


By the way How does it shave ???

I got a comfortable shave today on 2 days growth with minimal prep (just splashing warm water on my face)

I bought the 4k/8k in 2013 so its possible its from that transition period. How would you go about determining if the 4k is having issues though, since its not really leaving a mirror finish and the deeper striations wouldn't really be exposed until you polish it with a higher grit.

I have a cheap taidea 3k i use for kitchen knives I could try and compare it to, but that may open its own bag of worms.

Originally Posted by jag213

I got a comfortable shave today on 2 days growth with minimal prep (just splashing warm water on my face)

I bought the 4k/8k in 2013 so its possible its from that transition period. How would you go about determining if the 4k is having issues though, since its not really leaving a mirror finish and the deeper striations wouldn't really be exposed until you polish it with a higher grit.

I have a cheap taidea 3k i use for kitchen knives I could try and compare it to, but that may open its own bag of worms.

Okay you have learned two things here

One: we now know you have a bevel set and the razor is "Shave Ready"

Two, Stop messing with the other hones, stay on the 8k and keep working just there trying to make the shave SMOOTHER

Take all the ideas we have all posted and just mess around with improving the comfort, stop judging the edge on how it looks and switch to judging on how it FEELS

If it feels better then look after the shave

In the wise words of one of our old mentors "The day I stopped using High Magnification, my honing seemed to improve" he might have been on to something

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Okay you have learned two things here

One: we now know you have a bevel set and the razor is "Shave Ready"

Two, Stop messing with the other hones, stay on the 8k and keep working just there trying to make the shave SMOOTHER

Take all the ideas we have all posted and just mess around with improving the comfort, stop judging the edge on how it looks and switch to judging on how it FEELS

If it feels better then look after the shave

In the wise words of one of our old mentors "The day I stopped using High Magnification, my honing seemed to improve" he might have been on to something

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. Chasing a scratch-free mirror polish at 8k is like a dog chasing its tail. The dog ain't gonna get it, and if he does he may not like the result that much. Light at the right angle can hide or magnify as much as it reveals, there's a good chance mountains are being made of mole hills if the thing shaves comfortably.

That said, I've seen a lot of suggestions, but a few I haven't seen:

Run a hard tool like a chisel or screwdriver shank over the DMT. This will knock off any loose or frangible diamonds if they haven't been knocked off already to reduce chance of contamination.

Lap under running water, and scrub the stone with your finger pads after lapping to be sure all the swarf is washed off the surface.

People say negative space from DMT scratches doesn't effect an edge, I'm still unconvinced and dislike the deep scratches left in my 8K by a DMT. To me those scratches seem like ridges on a file, the peaks and ridges are what does the cutting so a scratchy stone is bound to be more aggressive. I follow t he DMT up with 1K & 2K sand paper to alleviate that issue, and at this point only use hard rubbing stones (Arkansas or Welsh slate) to clear the swarf. Which also ensures there's no 325 grit diamond chunks or sand paper material embedded in my stone. I doubt very much it abrades Arkansas stone silica, and Welsh Slate swarf is probably more helpful than not if any resides on my 8k. You can't really burnish it because it's a soft stone that readily releases grit, but you can make it flatter and smoother which has a similar effect imo. I treat the 4K the same way, neither have seen a DMT in a long time.

And just to reiterate, both the 4 and 8K Nortons come with a gritty skin and honing on that is kinda like honing on a brick. That first 1/16 to 1/8 inch needs to be lapped off before you get to the good stuff underneath. I'm assuming the OP is at the good stuff already, considering they're lapped after each use. The sides should be chamfered too, so you don't nick the edge on the brick like skin that's probably still on the edges.

Insanity is trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Try something different, see if your results dont change.

It's common for a lot of guys new to razor honing (and some who have been at it for awhile too) to over-complicate honing with tricky, unreliable HHT's, lots of light and magnification and other esoteric tests that all have their place, but as Glenn and others say, how does it FEEL/SHAVE? That's all that matters in the end. I like Glenn's quote regardless of who said it: "The day I stopped using High Magnification, my honing seemed to improve."-That has certainly been my experience. It is certainly a good idea to look at your edges at each stage in strong light and under some magnification to see what the edge looks like off of each stone, which yes, I still do, don't get me wrong, but I personally don't have the time or the patience to obsess over it. I usually go out on my deck with a low-powered loupe to scan along both sides to make sure everything is coming along the way it should, especially at bevel set on my Chosera 1k and off the Norton 4k side.

After that I hone mostly by feel, seriously; with a little experience, you can feel the bevel planes getting flatter and smoother on each side. And whichever poster said honing is an art, and to keep it simple to eliminate variables was dead on. Once you have that Norton 4/8k lapped the way you want it, it is very easy to get about 95% of the way to shave-ready off the 8k side. Heck, I still routinely get great shaves off of it when I test it on a new edge I am developing (though some with brillo-pad beards report that it is not enough for them).

A couple of tricks that radically and consistently improved my edges were the following (again, relying mostly on feel): 1. When you think you are "done" at each stage (especially on your 1k bevel-setter and both sides of the Norton 4/8k), finger-lap the hone under running water and do 15-25 more super-light, weight of the blade only, perfect strokes. 2. Then strop 15-30 strokes on CrOx linen and 40-50 leather. Yes, strop after each stone to help "set the edge"-I think I got that idea from Jerry Sell before he died (RIP Mr. Sell, the OG compulsive stropper). Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. Then only once you have mastered the 8k should you move on to the even more confusing world of natural finishers.

Oh, and whoever said to try to shave off of each stone starting with the bevel set speaks truth. I have done the 1k challenge (and the 4k, 8k too) more than once. That will give you more info. on how much you are getting right at each stage than anything. If you can't get a passable shave off the 1k, I would argue that your bevel is not completely set. YMMV, and don't forget to have fun-it's only shaving, which most men don't think about at all, just to put it in perspective...

Under the "different strokes for different folks" axiom (pun intended), thinking about Jerry Sell and using Walleyeman/Ray's brush in my last SOTD got me thinking about the group of guys I used to call "The Midwest Mafia" because a number of them were from Missouri: Ray and his son, Mike/Modine, Sham (and Kevin Adams aka Hidestoart from NC got hooked up with them). Those guys were very scientific, microscope-using honers, and by all accounts achieved stellar results. Mike/Modine in particular knew how to isolate and identify factors that changed edges for good or bad, and was always testing hones using a pretty good system he had. Of course most of them migrated to the now-defunct Razor and Stone. Anyway, a trip down memory lane. Do what works for you-just keep it simple so you know exactly WHAT made it work.