Thread: Taping while honing

Points to Ponder...

Yes, tape wear occurs, but this is not the main reason to change tape frequently... (or maybe its the main, but not the Only reason) As the tape surface wears, most tapes are more "wear resistant" on the surface. Once you have worn through that outer shell/layer the tape begins to break down quicker. This can result in tape particles clogging the stone, or shedding and buggering up your honing. While not an issue on the finer grits like 8k, I have seen it happen on 4k stones.
Secondly, Grit Particulates.... tape is tape... there is both some pliable (embedable) plastic compounds, and some sticky glue If you use any sort of slurry on your finer stones, the slurry particulates can become stuck to the tape, and if it lets go on the next finer stone...again, buggering up your honing. I change tape on every stone change.
Why do I use tape? I dont neccesarily see wide hone wear as ugly, but there is no denying that wider spine contacts and wider bevels create more drag on the strop. I like my razors to slide effortlessly across my leather, with only a little draw. Tiny bevels, and tiny hone wear, makes me happy.

Originally Posted by Slawman

Why is normal hone wear ugly? For hundreds of years straight razors were used every day & no one worried about hone wear. Razors are tools just like a tooth brush for personal body care. If properly used & cared for a tooth brush will last a long time.I don't have one razor I will not shave with. On the razors I own now I haven't used tape on any of them, they look good & shave good.
I guess if I have to worry about hone wear on a razor I would just put it in a display case. The whole idea behind the design of a straight razor blade is to keep the angle around the 16*-17* range. If you use tape it will how can the bevel be correct? I guess it really is not important what you do with your razors. I like to think I maintain & use my razors as they were meant to be. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Slawman

I tend to agree with you, Slawman. The shift comes about with the move to collecting: no longer are your razors just tools, they are now historical items to be preserved; emphasis shifts from the practical to the aesthetic. There is a parallel here with books. I used to have this roommate who was incredibly delicate and meticulous with his books.

He never held the book open all the way so the spines remained pristine, he would carefully turn each page, he had a separate notebook where he would document any passages, pages, or thoughts he had about the book. He loved his books! I love books too and used to take a similar approach, as though not keeping one's books in perfect condition was akin to not respecting one's books. At some point, though (around year 7 in university), it dawns on me that these are the tools of my trade. My father (a farmer) looked after his tools, but only so that he could use them more; his care for his tools never got in the way of using them for all they were worth. And so I began to USE my books: highlighting, underlining, notes in the margins, tabs on the pages. My point here is that we have this tendency to fetishize the thing. The tool (the razor, the book, the ratchet) become the end in themselves, rather than a means to an end (an amazing shaving experience, knowledge, a working tractor).

Now, with all this said, I tape the spine. No judgement for anyone who doesn't and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here, I just don't see any downside to it. If taping got in the way at all I am sure I wouldn't do it, but as it stands, taping allows me to fully use the razor without compromising its use, in the same way that my dad cleaning and oiling his tools never meant he was babying them or hesitant about using them for what they were meant for (and, being a farmer, often using them for what they weren't meant for too).

There are compelling reasons to use tape aside from geometry. If you’re going to restore and flip razors, one with less spine wear usually pleases the customer.

If you’re honing someone’s gold plated Dovo and it comes back with the gold worn off the spine, you might reasonably be asked to replace it.

Taping the iron omote of a kamosori is a good idea, used ones were almost always wonky - the iron seemed to wear too much even with the best honing technique. Same for framebacks whose spines were not hardened.

And of course geometry correction - I have a straight that I bought at a brocante in France that’s 12 degrees. Yep, 3-4 layers of electrical tape to get it into the ‘normal’ range.

I use 1 mil Kapton for protection, electrical tape (sometimes covered with Kapton since it’s more wear resistant) for geometry correction.

But usually I don’t use it for my personal ‘users’.

Tape or no tape, who cares it’s your razor, but if you don’t tape you won’t hone or sell to me, when I buy a tool I want the best condition I can afford, so the tool analogy doesn’t hunt. But I really think it’s time to nuke anyone starting one of these threads, we have several hundred that could be referred to without new piling on. Really does it matter? Like Steve said, easier and better price for a razor in mint condition than a worn out spine. This is almost as silly as ballistrol or camellia oil, it’s doesnt matter

Do what you will, not will what you do onto others.

It's good we all like different things. I am not saying it is wrong or right to use tape. I just know what works for me & if you don't want one of my razors that is fine. Let's just be friends who sometimes have different views.

Dave"Slawman" Huffman

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I change the tape two or three times during bevel set. I usually use a gritty slurry in my initial bevel work. After rinsing the slurry, I replace the tape and get an edge. I typically replace it once more and get the last few laps on my bevel setter with fresh tape. I will typically replace it twice at 4k and 8k. A final fresh layer for 12k and 20k.

Whatever tape works for you is great, changing it often is a given. It's CHEAP, so change it often. Let's face it, none of us is reinventing the wheel, we are lucky enough to have vast reservoirs of knowledge that we can tap into due to our members who share their knowledge that has been passed down since straights were the only choice for shaving

Originally Posted by CamaroZ28

I've been honing quite a bit lately and have had time to think about the process. After trying taping the spine on a razor I noticed that the tape had started to wear as expected. Having some machining experience that got the wheels turning. A few thousandths of an inch can make a difference when centering a part in a lathe for example. Same with tightening the jaws of the lathe chuck, you can see how many thousandths of an inch it moves on a dial indicator in relation to how tight it is.

With all this in mind I got to wondering about the changes in thickness of the tape. Theoretically replacing worn tape with new would mean the angle of the spine would change in relation to the edge of the blade. Whereas leaving the spine un-taped means that the wear of the spine would remain constant in relation to the edge.

I don't consider myself an expert at honing and typically fall into the no tape camp with few exceptions. Like many theoretical ideas the real question is does it really matter in the long run? What does everyone think?

I only use tape in certain situations. If the edge seems too fragile and the bevel angle is too acute, I will add a layer of Super 88 to the spine at the finish, and leave the razor with a compound bevel. If it REALLY acute, I might hone start to finish with tape, and add a layer of 33 for the finish on top of the 88.

Yeah, you need to change the tape if you want a nice flat bevel. If I am taping because the spine is too skinny for the width of the blade, then I will also apply some torque to the razor and give the edge more grit love than the spine, and this keeps the tape sound longer.

I also tape if I am stuck with honing a wedge, or a razor that has worn so much that the belly of the blade is incorporated into the bevel and so making a very wide bevel. Basically, a semi-wedge created by decades of maybe heavy handed honing.

I don't take in honing for pay and in fact seldom take in honing at all. Those who do, often take the easy way out and use tape whether it is geometrically called for, or not. They don't want unknowledgeable customers crying about spine wear. That's fine. That's what they do. It's not what I do.

The tape increases bevel angle in two ways. First, immediately, by virtually thickening the spine. That's the "now". You get an extra degree of bevel angle while honing with the tape, and this can help tame those too-skinny razors that chip out when you breathe on them or hold an edge for about three shaves. Then there is the cumulative changes. If you are wearing away steel from the edge, you are reducing blade width. Little by little. Or I could say very little by very little. In several years, that can add up. But that's okay. The spine is wearing, too, getting incrementally thinner, more or less in proportion to the edge wear, and so the bevel angle stays in the envelope for a very long time, maybe for the useful life of the razor. If you tape, and hone that razor for decades with tape, and hone it often, you will have made the bevel angle significantly more obtuse. That might be a bad thing. It might be a meh thing. It could even be a good thing. Depends on what you started with. But in time the razor will change. Eventually enough to notice.

The sweet spot of bevel angle is kind of one of them shades of gray things. But try shaving with a Henckels 401 that has been honed to a science fiction sharp edge. Then shave with a ZY430 honed just as carefully. One has a 14 degree or a bit less bevel angle. The other has a 20 degree bevel angle. One shaves like an F1 race car. The other shaves like a Yugo. They both shave, but differently. You might say that a 20 degree bevel shaves like a '55 Buick Roadmaster. I might say it shaves like a Ford Pinto on quaaludes. I might say the 14 degree razor shaves like a Lambo. You might say it shaves like a skateboard with a rocket engine and one wheel missing. There are preferences, and they might be different with different grinds or steel, but bevel angle makes a difference, especially at extremes of the range. Me, I like something between 16-1/2deg and 17deg. As a general rule. Lots of wiggle room but if it is a whole degree thinner or fatter I will probably not be too excited about the shave. Now how long does it REALLY take to permanently gain a whole degree on the bevel? I don't know. Depends on how often you hone, how many times you do a full bevel reset, how heavy your fist is and what sort of honing media you use. It might be that this is a non-issue for you. Or you might be really anal about it. So it's a personal thing. If you are honing for yourself, or just rehabilitating some found blades to sell or PIF, my recommendation is to tape when tape is needed, and not when it isn't. If you take in honing, maybe you want to tape just because the wear to the spine, unlike the wear to the edge, leaves a visible trace and some guys will whine about the spine damage and how you destroyed their precious razor. Some guys think their razors are jewelry, and not tools. Well, you can't educate everyone, so in that case just go ahead and tape and take the money.

Now the wearing thin of the tape does change the immediate bevel angle as it wears. This of course gives the bevel a slight convexity. Absolute cutting power will very likely suffer an infintesimal degree. But on the flip side, comfort might improve. The thing is, when you get to the finish, you need that tape to be full thickness or you are not getting the kind of contact that you maybe should be getting. As your tape wears, the pressure walks back up away from the apex as the spine sinks lower. This effect could be dismissed as inconsequential, or it could be a major thing. Depends on how into the details you are. Anyway, for best results with tape, whether you can detect the difference in the final edge or not, change the tape before it wears more than 1/3 the way through. You might not notice the difference. That doesn't mean you have to disregard it.

On these cumulative geometry changes, sure you might be dead long before the razor stops shaving good. So? That razor might last for another hundred years if honed intelligently. Screw it up an undetectable amount every year and maybe somebody picks it up off fleabay 50 years from now and then hates you passionately as he corrects the bevel. Just sayin. You don't have to care about it if you don't want to.

You know a razor doesn’t see a hone very often and then it’s only high grit so you might ruin the edge geometry with tape it. 100-200 years. If your constantly honing that razor on low grit bones then Chances are your just honing to hear the stone scratch. My razors haven’t seen anything less than an 8 k. Mostly just a 12k and very few light stokes so the tape has no effect. Again tape if you want to or not there is not one single thing said here that changes this debate. Cause really the question is what’s the best tape to use. Then some suggestions are related to the original question. Book length explanations haven’t changed opinions use or don’t it’s YOUR RAZORS. Oh and I agree tape is cheap change it often.

As said, it’s you razor tape if you want, don’t if you don’t.

Many a razor has been ruined by new honers, honing without tape with too many laps, too much pressure and low grit stones.

I have never seen a razor that will not shave because it was honed with tape. I have seen many that will not shave, because tape was not used.

The fix is, to hone with tape to make up the loss of spine thickness. All of my personal razors will never see a full 1k bevel set again, as long as I own them, a finisher or 8k at best.

“Theoretically replacing worn tape with new would mean the angle of the spine would change in relation to the edge of the blade. Whereas leaving the spine un-taped means that the wear of the spine would remain constant in relation to the edge.”

A guy just sent me a photo of a razor with a large chip, looks like about 3/16 in deep. How much of the spine will I need to grind, to match the amount of width loss, that will be needed to remove the chip?

Answer, none it will be honed with tape, and shave just fine.