Thread: Sharpening knives to justify DMTC

Originally Posted by chem_fun

As another question, how does the DMT EE rate to the 12k or 16k stones? As I understand it, the grit/mesh isn't really comparable.

Has anyone made a table showing equivalent smoothness? (ie: DMTC is between a 1k and a 4k norton...)

If not, I'd be interested in compiling the data into a multi-colored chart if someone would help me with it. That's something I'd find really helpful. To compare all the stones out there, and then put together sets to fit both needs and budgets.

Here's the DMT grit chart the C is rated as a 325 grit

hope it helps

Originally Posted by bjorn

Here's the DMT grit chart the C is rated as a 325 grit

hope it helps

How does that relate to Norton 200/1000/4000/8000? And a 12k or 16k stone? What about the pastes? As I understand it the CrOx is about .5 microns, so that would polish more than hone like the DMT EE?

I'm getting off topic. Maybe I should start another thread to compile the table. I think I'll do that.

The best way to do this is to rate the stones by Micron size. A Norton 8000 is different from a King 8000 is different from a Shapton 8000 is different from ....... and the list goes on.

Even still, there will be differences between stones rated at the same micron sizes. Natural stones are in a different ballpark alltogether.

Ben

Originally Posted by chem_fun

How does that relate to Norton 200/1000/4000/8000? And a 12k or 16k stone? What about the pastes? As I understand it the CrOx is about .5 microns, so that would polish more than hone like the DMT EE?

I'm getting off topic. Maybe I should start another thread to compile the table. I think I'll do that.

I believe both Norton and DMT use the same standard for gritsize so those two should be comparable.

Based on the above mentioned gritsizes:

Norton 220
DMT C 325
Norton 1000
Norton 4000
Norton 8000/DMT 8000
12K
16K
.5 microm ChromOx

As for .5 micron ChromeOx I've seen it rated as approx. 30K so it would polish a lot better then the DMT EE which is 8K.

I was pleased with the results of using a DMT D8C to hone chips out of knife edges.

BUt if you like shapr knives you will need something finer to put a good edge on them.

You would probably need something else between say that and the norton 4k/8k for example as well.

I would also use the DMT over the norton 220, as it seems to cut much much faster. And with such coarse stone what you really want is fast cutting anyway.

Originally Posted by chem_fun

What would be a setup to last me nearly forever to both keep my straights sharpened, lap my stones (if needed), keep my cooking knives sharp and maybe fix up a few e-bay blades. (either old rusty blades or a NIB Double Arow or Wapi)

This is a very hard set of requirements to accommodate.

Knives need different grit levels and techniques than straight razors do and the stones used for knives really need to be lapped before being used for razors, so you either need two sets of stones or a DMTC (or a lot of patience and sandpaper).

On top of that, the fewer hones that you buy, the more experience your going to need so that you can know that the job was done correctly.

My recommendation is:

1) DMTC for doing major reworking of all edged tools and lapping stones/hones.

2) DMTE for refining cutting edges that have correctly "set" bevel. DMTs can be gotten from craftsmanstudio.com.

3) Belgian Coticule (6x2 from theperfectedge.com) for finishing your razors.

There are other routes but that one, in my opinion, has the least fuss, greatest outcome, and longest service life of all of the options commonly used.

(Wet sandpaper on a glass pane can be substituted for #1 and #2, but it requires more prep to use and makes more of a mess. A 4k hone would be nice to have in between #2 and #3 but it is not a necessity if you don't mind taking a little extra time. A pasted strop could be used after #3 if you really want the extra polish on your blade.)

Originally Posted by chem_fun

Has anyone made a table showing equivalent smoothness? (ie: DMTC is between a 1k and a 4k norton...)

If not, I'd be interested in compiling the data into a multi-colored chart if someone would help me with it. That's something I'd find really helpful. To compare all the stones out there, and then put together sets to fit both needs and budgets.

We tried to do this a while ago: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...eir-grits.html

The problem is that the effective grit rating is determined by more than just particle size (micron rating). There are factors like: shape of the grit particles, material properties of the grit particles (whether they fracture and become finer with use, how much harder than steel are they, etc.), hardness/softness of the binding material, amount of grit released into the lubricant while honing with repsect to how much pressure is used on each stroke, grit to binder ratio, how each individual utilizes the hone in question...

And then if that weren't bad enough, there's personal preference.

The recommendations given are generally best if they are on a case by case basis, the setup I recommended for your needs is not necessarily best for the next guy who wants to sharpen knives and razors but has the money for nice natural stones or a full set of Shaptons. But it will probably do the job for you, and quite well.

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

This is a very hard set of requirements to accommodate.

Knives need different grit levels and techniques than straight razors do and the stones used for knives really need to be lapped before being used for razors, so you either need two sets of stones or a DMTC (or a lot of patience and sandpaper).

On top of that, the fewer hones that you buy, the more experience your going to need so that you can know that the job was done correctly.

My recommendation is:

1) DMTC for doing major reworking of all edged tools and lapping stones/hones.

2) DMTE for refining cutting edges that have correctly "set" bevel. DMTs can be gotten from craftsmanstudio.com.

3) Belgian Coticule (6x2 from theperfectedge.com) for finishing your razors.

There are other routes but that one, in my opinion, has the least fuss, greatest outcome, and longest service life of all of the options commonly used.

Russel's recommendation is in fact what I've ended up with, with the recent addition of the Shapton GS16K after a combination of a groupbuy and HAD, the coticule gives me very nice shaving edges and I havn't gotten to the conclution that the GS is nesscecery.

Originally Posted by bjorn

Russel's recommendation is in fact what I've ended up with, with the recent addition of the Shapton GS16K after a combination of a groupbuy and HAD, the coticule gives me very nice shaving edges and I havn't gotten to the conclution that the GS is nesscecery.

Ok, so with a kenrup wapi that I got TODAY. Did about half my face, will post a first shave thread once I've worked up to the entire face.

Since it's new, and till I get an e-bay non-shave ready razor (like a DA), I don't really need the D8C?

Did you and Russel really mean the D8E or did you mean the D8EE?

Haven't checked the prices on the coticule yet, what about a 12k for finishing, with some .5 diamond paste or CrO that I got with my kenrup strop?

I'll add to this that I don't really have thick whiskers at all. And FWIW, my wusthof knives still have a descent edge after only about 2 - 3 years of use. (though some get used daily, and I put them on the chef's choice 120, and now regret that)

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

This is a very hard set of requirements to accommodate.

When I read these words I thought, No it isn't, Russel! All you need is a –

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

1) DMTC for doing major reworking of all edged tools and lapping stones/hones.

2) DMTE for refining cutting edges that have correctly "set" bevel. DMTs can be gotten from craftsmanstudio.com.

3) Belgian Coticule (6x2 from theperfectedge.com) for finishing your razors.

Exactly.

I totally agree that this is the best route (OK, marginally better would be a 6x2 combo). If you're not prone to the siren call of HAD, this is truly all the hones you'll ever need for shaving and cooking (I can't speak to carpentry or other tools).

There are any number of other routes; the reason this one's great is that the hone you're using on both razors and knives (the DMTE) never needs to be lapped. Taking a butcher knife to a normal water stone can leave the surface less than optimal for razors, and then you end up lapping every time you hone. Total drag.