Thread: When did Breadknifing get popular?

Forgive me for answering the off topic post with yet another.
No, I bought about 20 or so blades for restoring all at once. Paid about 9 bucks each for them if you average it out. I have no idea what they cost each because I bought so many at once. Thanks to the nice people on this forum, I put a plea out for blades, and several people delivered big time. I ended up with stacks of the things. It's slow going because I don't start a new one until the last one is fully in the shaving rotation. I don't feel at all bad about destroying the blades, because I am bringing so many more back to life. Accidents happen, you know?

I am with Bart on this one. I have only used the breadknifing technique in extreme cases but I have used it and successfully set a bevel and got to shave ready on a half dozen blades. The traditional way is fine and I have honed chips out that way as well but on a severely chipped edge you have to put the time in one way or the other. Sort of pay me now or pay me later but one way or the other. One thing I will say is if you breadknife a razor you better know how to set a bevel and have the right hones for the job.

I have breadknifed a total of one razor, a Goldedge that had an impressively massive what the hell was he thinking type of frown. I considered it to be the only proper way to make the razor even remotely serviceable. It worked but it took a lot of time and I ended up with a useable but significantly narrower blade. Of course the bevel setting took a long time, and I do not think that breadknifing should be used except for extreme circumstances, but I do not agree that it leads to the removal of excess material. As soon as you lay the razor back to the normal honing position, metal removal commences on both the spine and the newly forming bevel. The last area to commence metal removal is the very apex of the bevel, aka, the edge. The bevel is set when the apex touches the hone. For that reason, I don't believe that breadknifing done properly is responsible for the removal of any excess metal.

I still have not read one valid point contra.

It's not traditional? I wouldn't bet my money on that. I remember Chris L talking about an old coticule he bought that had a groove running at the side, from where the previous owner used to run his edges in a breadknifing motion. I can imagine a home honer, or even a barber, getting a chip in the edge or developing a frown over prolonged time. I can imagine that person bringing his blade to a qualified razor sharpener to restore it in good condition. I wonder what that qualified razor sharpener would have done. Send the razor to the factory for a regrind? Get a straight (or a nice smiling) apex on it and recreate the bevel? (Thanks for the "apex" word, Utopian)

It removes more metal than necessary? When used with insight, it clearly does not.

True, it does not solve spine problems, but it does not claim that either.
Honing with tape on the spine does not solve spine problems either. I suspect that honing with tape is not very traditional. Let's rule it out.

The only thing that goes against it, is that it, from all things newbies might try without properly understanding what they are doing, is the most counterproductive.

BTW, I feel this thread should be moved to the advanced honing section.

Bart.

Bart,

Your points a very valid. I used the word "traditional" so I just want to clarify that I'm not sure they used the word "breadknifing". I think it might be a technique that was used and I am thinking that there is probably a more correct term.

I'm not trying to get you riled up.

I am not advocating that you are wrong or that the concept is bad. I do find it a tad extreme. But in extremity we often find effectiveness!

I do also think that if you don't have extensive experience building bevels you shouldn't do it. I'm wondering if, from a bevel creation standpoint that it might be the most challenging bevel to create because there is no guide to recreate the geometry. I mean that if you remove all the bevel then recreating it would be, perhap, even harder.

I don't have enough experience with doing this though, since, well, I've never done it. I'm not sure I would have the skill to fix it.

But I'm not sure that anyone is really trying to negate it. Although I think perhaps some are trying to push that new honers shouldn't use it unless they have no stake in that particular blade.

I also re-read one of your posts and you discuss what I would call light breadknifing. That is probably different than what I've got in my mind. I'm of the impression that we are talking about grinding down a bevel until whatever chip is in the edge is gone.

I think your describing some light perpendicular strokes, too (also), for a particular effect.

Again, I hope my playful reply doesn't put you on the defensive. I don't think your seeing much "contra" because I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing.

I think everyone that might disagree (in 99 out of 100 cases) would at some point stare straight into an edge that would likely best benefit from breadknifing, or perhaps what I would call "perpendicular grinding".

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

...I do find it a tad extreme. But in extremity we often find effectiveness!

I do also think that if you don't have extensive experience building bevels you shouldn't do it. I'm wondering if, from a bevel creation standpoint that it might be the most challenging bevel to create because there is no guide to recreate the geometry. I mean that if you remove all the bevel then recreating it would be, perhap [sic], even harder....

Although I think perhaps some are trying to push that new honers shouldn't use it unless they have no stake in that particular blade....

I think everyone that might disagree (in 99 out of 100 cases) would at some point stare straight into an edge that would likely best benefit from breadknifing, or perhaps what I would call "perpendicular grinding".

It IS extreme, but it's no harder to recreate a bevel than refining one, since the spine and edge automatically create said geometry. It just takes a lot longer.

I am definitely one of those who is pushing new folks to avoid this on razors they truly care about. If it's an experimental razor, well then who cares.


To me, there are some cases (frowns or 1/4" chips) where grinding down the edge is the only option. It's the honing equivalent of tactical nukes.

Originally Posted by Bart

It's not traditional? I wouldn't bet my money on that. I remember Chris L talking about an old coticule he bought that had a groove running at the side, from where the previous owner used to run his edges in a breadknifing motion. I can imagine a home honer, or even a barber, getting a chip in the edge or developing a frown over prolonged time. I can imagine that person bringing his blade to a qualified razor sharpener to restore it in good condition. I wonder what that qualified razor sharpener would have done. Send the razor to the factory for a regrind? Get a straight (or a nice smiling) apex on it and recreate the bevel? (Thanks for the "apex" word, Utopian)

Chris mentioned that particular stone because of it uniqueness. In all of the thousands of stones guys here have, it is the only one with that mark. I've got a honing stone with a groove in it too, it was used for sharpening a particular gouge by my grandfather for a very long time. A unique tool with a unique purpose.

I can imagine a lot of things, that doesn't mean that they ever happened.

It was not uncommon to have the a razor reground especially compared to today. now there are a couple of guys qualified to do it in the country a hundred years ago almost every knife shop had intimate knowledge of straight razors.

Originally Posted by Bart

The only thing that goes against it, is that it, from all things newbies might try without properly understanding what they are doing, is the most counterproductive.

Bingo. Its the shaving equivalent of pulling the engine to change the spark plugs. I've seen several guys in the last week resort to this, before consulting the board, as soon as they encountered a honing hiccup. This is a big thing against it. it is a last resort technique for the extreme blade restorer. If one razor out of a hundred actually needs this technique I'd be surprised

If a noob thinks his blade needs this technique it would be easy enough to get confirmation by posting a picture. If the majority of responses vary from " ewe, thats a problem" to "why in heck did you pay money for that" then it might be a candidate for ripping the whole bevel off. If you get other responses I'd say other techniques ought to be tried first.

Originally Posted by Bart

BTW, I feel this thread should be moved to the advanced honing section.

Bart.

With the number of noobs Breadknifing perfectly good blades, I'd say it belongs wherever they will see it and think twice before exponentially multiplying their difficulty in learning to hone.

Breadknifing? That’s the only thing I don’t like about it- the silly name.

I find that option to be intuitive, rather than regular honing to get rid of wasted material. Breadknifining is intutative. Restoration of the bevel at 1000 grit is quick and easy imho.

Take it one step further and polish the flat ground edge to finish polish and you have a technique. There is not additional removal of material over and above regular honing that I can see- maybe 1/1000th or so.

Originally Posted by kevint

I find that option to be intuitive, rather than regular honing to get rid of wasted material. Breadknifining is intutative. Restoration of the bevel at 1000 grit is quick and easy imho.

That is it in a nutshell. The metal has to come off and if the honer knows how to restore the bevel there is no problem. If OTOH, they don't know how then they have no business fooling with it to begin with. If the metal to be removed is so much that it will affect the geometry of the razor then whether it is worth the cost of the regrind has to be considered. I just sent a Torrey back to an ebay seller as the edge was too badly pitted too far up in and above the bevel to be restorable. Each case has to be judged on it's own merits.

The main reason for breadknifing is to make sure you have a straight edge
and it's not new. they have been doing it for a long time
Carpenters and Cabinet Makers use that method all the times on their chisels, plane blades and even more on cabinet scrapers.
They even have special jigs to do it.
Having a straight edge is the first step to sharpening these blades and is of upmost importance.
When shaving, a real straight edge is not as important because the skin is pliable and will follow a slight curve.
Not so with wood. With a wavy edge you will see the waves in the finish wood.