Thread: my first honing experience

if dmt made scratches it will not take out.use coticle .important is not to jump coticle too early.MOst starting honers made that mistake.if you made 50 laps if don't get what you were looking for then it has been early jump to coticle.in this case you can go to dmt.check the edge now and see how it is.then decide go to dmt or belgium.Remember dmt very very fast cutter i mean it.you don't have to put any more pressure on your blade just 10-15 passes and check edge or go to coticle.
good luck
do you have chromiym02/will help to use it after belgium coticle

Maarten,

It seems Hi_bud_gl and I have a different approach to using Belgian hones.

I'm not eager to start a debate on that, but he's advicing you to do things that are guaranteed to give me bad results on every single one of my Coticules. Maybe they're all for woodworking tools and Hi_bud_gl has one for razors. I have bought several "for razor use" at Ardennes Coticule, one vintage purchased of Ebay that came with a razor, and a bunch that I produced myself from raw Coticule that I picked up at abandoned Coticule mining pits. Apart form all that, I have used Coticules and Blues owned by other people as well. The method in my "Belgian Progression" article in the Wiki was not invented by me, but by David Polan (HeavydutySG135) and Josh Earl, both very well respected and longtime members of SRP. This method produces a good shaveready edge, that shaves close without pulling. I stand by that.

Don't expect that you can reproduce my results on the ERN. It took me 2 months of frequent practice before I managed to produce a decent shaveready edge, but that was because I had no real idea what to do. Today, there is much more information readily available in the Wiki. Once I could repeat myself in honing a basic shaveready edge, I very slowly learned to improve my results. My razors today are not a whole lot keener, but you can't expect to match that right away. Furthermore, I have more hones than you, and I know them better than you know yours.
Now, that said, let's get to work, shall we?

Did you "break in" your DMT? That is very important.

Is your "Blue" really a Blue? How do you produce your slurry on it? Does it has an ink-like color?

You can shave off your Coticule with slurry, that's a good sign. But you'll have a hard time making that edge keener without the Blue or even the DMT1200. I can shave off all my Coticules with slurry, but it pulls. With slurry they really max out at a certain keenness level. There's a bit of variance between Coticules on how sharp that is, but I have not yet encountered one that got the edge keen enough for an easy shave. Maybe Hi-bud-gl has one, but I doubt it. (I believe he goes to an Esher after the Coticule)
From where I stand, your razor is at "Cotiule-with-slurry"-keennes right now. You need to boost that keenness somehow. The Belgian Blue with light slurry has that capability. (It may sound odd to you, but also a well broken in DMT1200 has that capability). I suggest that you go back to the Blue (if it indeed is a Blue) and hone with the lightest pressure on a very thin slurry. Add water as soon as the slurry shows any sign of thickening. Add more water near the end. The Blue is slow, you're honing a wedge, you're not removing scratches, but you're actually refining a bevel, so don't be afraid to do many laps. Check with the TPT often. I recommend the HHT. If your own hair is thin, harvest a freshly washed strain from someone with thick hair. Save it in a little box. A small strain of hairs (length aprox. 6 cm) will last you many years. When I leave the Blue stage, I can pop hanging hairs, relatively close to where I hold them and I don't mind that I need to drag them accross the edge a bit, to make them catch and pop. When that happens, it's time for the Coticule with water. Shut down your brain and do 100 lightest laps. Strop 60 laps on clean leather after that. Try the HHT again. Should be no problem, even if you try popping them 2 cm from the holding point. Time to test shave.

I understand if you want to try other advice as well. There are more ways to skin a cat. But you have to realize that every time you hone on Coticule-slurry, you'll reset the keenness to a fixed level, property of your particular Coticule. This doesn't happen with water only. Imo, Coticule-slurry is for bevel-setting.

Bart.

Hmmm now I am getting a kind of confused..

The slurry of the BBW is a kind of purple and certainly not like ink..I produced the slurry with the DMT which I didnt break in either.. I didnt know I had to and I havent figured out how to do that yet..

If the BBW side is not BBW I gues I'll just have to get a BBW or should I break the DMT in and go back to that?

I dont expect to become an instant honemeister.. and I do realize this razor is probably not te easiest to hone anyway. But I like the honing anyway..
My goal is to get this razor back to a sharpness good enough for a comfortable shave.
I have two shave ready razors and a shavette to shave with so I dont have to get the Dirlam shave ready asap. And I have patience to learn and the people to learn from and I'm having fun doing it...

Bart i have to clear couple things i think

if person says blue is slate ?
and after doing so many laps in yellow coticle
what would you think

i thought in this situation blade is not ready to go to yellow coticle ,
now you are saying last sentences in your post
'Imo, Coticule-slurry is for bevel-setting"=I NEVER heart this
i always thought and had experience that you set bevel wtih 4k or lower
About going to use dmt 12000 the reason i said i thought again blade is not ready (not sharp enough=dull blade put on coticle and hone for days will not get sharp)then he has to go dmt and get edge ready which he could go to coticle.
about my coticles
i have seen coticle which will act 4k and i have seen coticle act 8k.currently i have coticle which is overhones blade and it is fast cutter natural combo.
COTICULE IS THE WORST STONE FOR NEWBY TO USE IT .Let me explain why?
New person doesn't know how should coticle act.as 4k ,8k etc

That is why new people confused about coticle(let me tell this i have seen adrenna always says let him know purpose of yuor purchase =for razor or chisel's etc =i do appreciate that.it helps a lot.
i did ask the person is your coticle for razor or not and answer was it is positive coticle meant to for straight razors.
You are right i do go to Escher after coticle because of i don't like to go pastes but i am sure if you go to chromium oxide after right coticle you will get great shave ready edge.i mean right coticle not 4 k coticle.

hope this clear's my thought and thank you for your open opinion i appreciate.

Originally Posted by Bart

Maarten,

It seems Hi_bud_gl and I have a different approach to using Belgian hones.

I'm not eager to start a debate on that, but he's advicing you to do things that are guaranteed to give me bad results on every single one of my Coticules. Maybe they're all for woodworking tools and Hi_bud_gl has one for razors. I have bought several "for razor use" at Ardennes Coticule, one vintage purchased of Ebay that came with a razor, and a bunch that I produced myself from raw Coticule that I picked up at abandoned Coticule mining pits. Apart form all that, I have used Coticules and Blues owned by other people as well. The method in my "Belgian Progression" article in the Wiki was not invented by me, but by David Polan (HeavydutySG135) and Josh Earl, both very well respected and longtime members of SRP. This method produces a good shaveready edge, that shaves close without pulling. I stand by that.

Don't expect that you can reproduce my results on the ERN. It took me 2 months of frequent practice before I managed to produce a decent shaveready edge, but that was because I had no real idea what to do. Today, there is much more information readily available in the Wiki. Once I could repeat myself in honing a basic shaveready edge, I very slowly learned to improve my results. My razors today are not a whole lot keener, but you can't expect to match that right away. Furthermore, I have more hones than you, and I know them better than you know yours.
Now, that said, let's get to work, shall we?

Did you "break in" your DMT? That is very important.

Is your "Blue" really a Blue? How do you produce your slurry on it? Does it has an ink-like color?

You can shave off your Coticule with slurry, that's a good sign. But you'll have a hard time making that edge keener without the Blue or even the DMT1200. I can shave off all my Coticules with slurry, but it pulls. With slurry they really max out at a certain keenness level. There's a bit of variance between Coticules on how sharp that is, but I have not yet encountered one that got the edge keen enough for an easy shave. Maybe Hi-bud-gl has one, but I doubt it. (I believe he goes to an Esher after the Coticule)
From where I stand, your razor is at "Cotiule-with-slurry"-keennes right now. You need to boost that keenness somehow. The Belgian Blue with light slurry has that capability. (It may sound odd to you, but also a well broken in DMT1200 has that capability). I suggest that you go back to the Blue (if it indeed is a Blue) and hone with the lightest pressure on a very thin slurry. Add water as soon as the slurry shows any sign of thickening. Add more water near the end. The Blue is slow, you're honing a wedge, you're not removing scratches, but you're actually refining a bevel, so don't be afraid to do many laps. Check with the TPT often. I recommend the HHT. If your own hair is thin, harvest a freshly washed strain from someone with thick hair. Save it in a little box. A small strain of hairs (length aprox. 6 cm) will last you many years. When I leave the Blue stage, I can pop hanging hairs, relatively close to where I hold them and I don't mind that I need to drag them accross the edge a bit, to make them catch and pop. When that happens, it's time for the Coticule with water. Shut down your brain and do 100 lightest laps. Strop 60 laps on clean leather after that. Try the HHT again. Should be no problem, even if you try popping them 2 cm from the holding point. Time to test shave.

I understand if you want to try other advice as well. There are more ways to skin a cat. But you have to realize that every time you hone on Coticule-slurry, you'll reset the keenness to a fixed level, property of your particular Coticule. This doesn't happen with water only. Imo, Coticule-slurry is for bevel-setting.

Bart.

Hey hi_bud_gl, I certainly did not wanted to come across as if you don't know your stuff. I always read your posts with great interest, and I think you often offer valuable input. I just felt like warning Maarten that he must not mix up two different honing approaches.

About Coticules... I think as a finishing hone, used with only water, they're pretty easy going. Because of their slowness (again: with water), they're a bit forgiving to a less that perfect honing stroke, and as long as there are no serious contaminations in the surface of hard abrasive rock, they all are good enough to produce that typical smooth edge, as long as the razor has an already keen bevel before smoothing it out on the Coticule.
With slurry, one enters a completely different realm, and that's were it starts to become confusing. For starters, there's a huge difference in speed between Coticules. Some are really slow, some are freakishly fast. Fact is that on softer steel (kitchen knifes) those differences are a lot smaller, so I really think that it has something to do with varying hardness of the garnets. Another thing that they all do when used with slurry, is maxing out at a preset keenness level. Even if you take a sharper edge to a Coticule, it will revert that edge to its own keenness level within very few laps. I have the impression that the maximum keenness level differs between Coticules, and on some Coticules it really helps to slowly dilute the slurry near the end of the honing session. But I find the results of that very unpredictable.
Some Coticules with slurry can cut as fast as a 1K hone. And the resulting keennes is comparable too. Only the scratch patten, due to the unique way the garnets cut, is much smoother than that of a 1K hone. That's mainly because the scratches are so shallow. On all other hones, we must progress to finer hones, NOT because we need the scratches to be less wide, but because we need them to be less deep. That's important, because that's the only way to allow a small enough bevel tip. (which defines the final keenness). Coticules and Belgian Blues are the only hones I know that leave relatively wide, but shallow scratches. It's a bit like sharpening a pencil with sandpaper or with a plane. (that's not a completely accurate comparison, but it does illustrate that you don't need to make small scratches to get someting really sharp.) The same garnets that make this magic happen, also abrade the very edge to a degree, hence the preset keennes issue, and I think the reason why I have yet to see overhoning caused by a Coticule. (It surprises me that you have).
I find it very difficult to improve the keenness level left by a Coticule with slurry, by using only the same Coticule with water. With some Coticules that's even completely impossible. I believe that's what makes it a enigmatic stone. Even in the old days they often used more than one Coticule to hone a razor to perfection. A soft and fast one followed by a harder and finer one.
That is in a way what you do, only your harder and finer stone calls "Esher" and is another species of rock. Maarten doesn't have an Esher.

Maarten, I still think that your "Blue" could be a true Blue. Can you post a picture and tell us where you bought the stone? Have you specifically bought a "combo" stone, or did you just by "a Coticule"?
As far as the DMT concerns: when new, it's overly aggressive for a razor. Some of the diamond particles are so high above the surface that they leave very deep scratches, which stay behind as very small chips missing at the edge, once you have removed the layer of regular scratches from the bevel sides. Some may call that overhoning, and blame the stone you used to remove the layer of scratches, but it's actually caused by a previous hone. This is not the only cause for overhoning, but it's a risk if your DMT is not broken in well. A very good way to break it in is to raise Coticule slurry on top of the DMT, and hone with slurry on it. It's a very pleasant way of honing as well. It doesn't take long before your DMT will slow down a bit and become much smoother. (It 'll still be more than fast enough, though). Before you continue to the next hone, remove the slurry and use water with a drop of dishwashing soap, and make about 15 very light laps. Make those your best laps. You must pass the HHT or the "mow arm hair above skin level" test, if you want to proceed to the Blue. If it is a Blue. We'll talk further after that one got figured out.

Best regards,
Bart.

Well this evening I used to break in the DMT and to make some pictures of my honing results..





this is my Coticule/BBW combo.. I got it from marktplaats( a local eBay) from a guy that had serious HAD and his "SHMBO" made him reduce his collection. He also sold me the Dirlam. I'm sure he is a visitor here because he asked me if I was the same Maarten from SRP... its a small world.. He sold is as a BBW/Coticule Combo....

I think the bigest problem was breaking in the DMT (which I didnt do.. It might have just ruined the bevel in stead of setting it..

This is the picture of the bevel as it was before I honed it on the DMT tonight..the scales on top of the picture are 0.5mm


It was on the worst spot I could find...

After that I broke in the DMT by making a coticule slurry on the DMT and honed my victorynox pocketknife..

then when that knife wasnt blunt anymore I did to many laps on the DMT and then the bevel looked like this.
it looks pretty straight and I lost the small chips.

Well Maarten, there's good news and bad news...

The results on your DMT are much better now that it's properly broken in. I'm sure you can see that for yourself.
That's the good news.

The bad news is that the Coticule is no combo stone. That looks just like the regular slate back, Ardennes Coticules glues the Coticules to for the sake of reinforcement. I'm afraid that you're without a Blue. The slate back has no honing use.

I'm sorry to tell you this.

Bart.

+1 with Bart, sorry.

I looked at your edge pictures again, and I see now that the second one has lower magnification. It still looks a bit jagged to me, but I think you're on the right track.

Now that we know, you're without a Blue, here's what I propose:

1. make sure your bevel is complete, coming off the DMT. If it shaves arm hair very well, you're fine. Even better if you could pass the HHT, as I described it in one of the previous posts on this thread.

2. Get a light slurry on your Coticule. Light means very watery. For our purposes right now, the slurry should not look like milk, but more like water with a slight white cloudiness.
Hone on the Coticule for about 50 laps. Keep that slurry the same consistency, by adding water if it starts to dry. After those 50 laps, you should start diluting the slurry with 2 maybe 3 drops of water per 10 laps. Dilute it 10 times, this totals 100 laps.

3. Strop 60 laps on clean leather and test shave. It depends a bit on your Coticule how well this will work.


Regarding the DMT, it really should feel a bit different honing on it, if it's broken in well. The initial grittiness should be gone.

Good luck,
Bart.

This is what i said without seen his blue after dmt go to yellow not the blue side?
i mention forget about blue just use dmt and belgian.
i would love to know the first picture come from after dmt or slate ?i do think dmt wouldn't do such a bad edge .i am talking first picture.Please post picture of the edge after you use coticle final edge.i would like to see it.
Anyway as long as you are in right track that is all matter.
good luck