Thread: "Touching Up" Guidelines?

From what I've heard you can't really overhone on a coticule so more strokes do not hurt the blade either.

BTW Bart, I got my parents to pick me up a DMT 1200 while they're in Florida! That should solve my problems with the coticule bevel setting business. Now I'll be able to use the DMT, Belgian blue/slurry then coticule with water.

Would a few passes on the coticule with slurry after the DMT 1200 help or?

Originally Posted by Bart

A Coticule, when used with water only, is a very slow cutter.
Everything I read on this forum, suggests that most all barber hones are much faster than that. I don't own one, so this is no first hand experience. I base myself on the fact that barber hones are reported very easy to overhone, which I think is something that primarily happens on hones with high cutting power.

Sorry to be a pain about this Bart... maybe I missed it... but I don't remember reading anything on this forum that suggest the average barber hone being a faster cutter than the average coticule waterstone, with water only.

Could you or anyone shed some light on this?

Originally Posted by Dups

Would a few passes on the coticule with slurry after the DMT 1200 help or?

I'm still getting the hang of this honing melarky myself, but that is exactly what I do. I do this for 2 reasons.
1. The great feedback you get from the coticule with slurry gives me a real good idea when the edge is ready to progress from this crucial stage.
2. It does seem to smooth things out a bit, and speed things up on the next grit.

I mostly do it for the first reason though.

Connor

Smythe, I appreciate your hesitation with this. Initially, I did the 3 to 5 strokes with the barber hones because that's what was recommended in ALL of the instructions I have ever found with them. I have seen a few barber hone instructions that recommend more along the lines of "as many as needed," but the 3-5 recommendation is remarkably consistent. Anyway, I followed the advice and found that most of the time it was sufficient. So, now I do 3-5 because it works.

Also, I have found the 10 strokes with water on a coticule is also sufficient for most coticules and razors.

Originally Posted by smythe

Sorry to be a pain about this Bart... maybe I missed it... but I don't remember reading anything on this forum that suggest the average barber hone being a faster cutter than the average coticule waterstone, with water only.

Could you or anyone shed some light on this?

It is often reported that barber hones are very prone to cause a wire edge. The way I look at honing, that suggests that they can be pretty aggresive cutters, relative to their grit. SRP member Johnny J used to do his entire honing on a selection of barber hones (I don't know if he still does it)
Here's the key post out of a very interesting thread of his:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/246647-post66.html

While I further have zero experience with barber hones, I do know something about Coticules.
When used with water, they're among the slowest hones I ever came accross. 10 laps on a Coticule with water only works on a razor with a narrow bevel and at the very first signs of edge deterioration. Otherwise it takes more than that, and often, touching up on a Coticule with water literally doesn't cut it at all. It think that is because it is such a pure polisher in "water mode". Great to remove scratches left by previous hones, but pretty lame for removing solid steel, in order to refine the bevel tip. That is also the reason why a Coticule with water only performs its magic on edges that are already very keen.
Dylandog was about to do some experiments on seeking keenness off a barber hone prior to finsishing it on his Coticule. I don't know how it turned out. I may have missed it when he reported results, or maybe it just didn't work and he trashed the whole idea.

Maybe I'm wrong with correlating the ability to produce a wire edge, with abrasive power. But I sure know that 3 to 5 laps on a Coticule with water isn't going to resort much effect at all, upon touching-up a razor, while it seems the general consensus of laps to do for touching up on a barber hone.

Best regards,
Bart

Well let me say I have zero experience with a the citicule, so I am basing my inquiry on a bit of logic and experience with my Norton 8K water hone and the few barber hones I have in my possession.

I always thought that in general, water hones were fast cutters, because the binder is soft and thus creates a slurry, even with a small amount of water splashed on the surface, this makes for speedy metal removal, barber hones on the other hand the binder is hard and so don’t generally make a slurry, and glasses quickly.

Bart, I have read the post, though I never herd of any of the hones Jonny_J used in his honing process, I will admit, barber hones come in an innumerable verity of grits, abrasives, binders and surface texture (and honing skill), all of which affects the speed and quality of the honing process…

Utopian that's interesting, but judging from the amount of material removed using the barber hones in my possession versus the removal using the water hone I would think the water hone removes more steel, so if removal of material creates a wire, then how does the barber hone create a wire with so few strokes?... is the coticule that slow? and the barber hone that fast?

Let me emphasize again... I could be way of base equating the cutting speed of the coticule to the N8K, but only (my understanding) because it is a water hone, and again my understanding is, water hones are faster cutters (faster than ceramics).

I seem to remember someone started a thread "a compendium of hones and grits" or something like that, but I cannot find it.

Originally Posted by Bart

10 laps on a Coticule with water only works on a razor with a narrow bevel and at the very first signs of edge deterioration. Otherwise it takes more than that, and often, touching up on a Coticule with water literally doesn't cut it at all.

As the saying goes, you learn something new everyday. I was under the impression that the coticule was renowned as a versatile all around hone, especially for finishing and touch ups. At least that's why I bought one . Could anyone shed some light on the practice of touch ups with a yellow coticule only?

Don't jump ship on the coticule yet. It depends on the individual coticule what kind of response you get. I would start a touch up with just water and maybe 10 strokes and then shave. If it's not up to snuff, do another ten and test shave. If you get bored with that, then maybe make a bit of a slurry and do 10 strokes and then rinse the hone and then do maybe 20 to 50 strokes with just water.

The wonderful thing about touch ups is that you know that you HAD a sharp edge and you are trying to do a little at a time to get it back to that sharp edge. The wonderful thing about the coticule, as opposed to a barber hone, is that you cannot over do the number of strokes on the coticule. Do NOT lose faith in the power of the coticule. I agree with, and fully attest to, the claim that the coticule is the most versatile of hones.

In all respect:
There is no substitute for getting acquainted with your hones, and that counts double for natural hones. Those of us that have, can fill thread after thread with recipes and generalizations about our honing, and believe me, we will. But those recommendations will always remain no more than a light beacon on a misty ocean. No newcomer is dismissed from doing his own homework.

A few examples:
You might still be happily shaving with a razor, when I am already on the hones, "in urgent need of a touch-up".
Your Coticule may release the faintest hint of garnets, even when used with water, while mine may not.
Your idea of zero pressure might be quite different than mine.
Your razor may be a resilient hone-buster, and mine might be a "Double Buck" (sic), that already becomes sharp when you keep it in a drawer next to a hone.
I might be someone, that tries a tool once, says "nah" and goes out to buy another. You might be someone that hangs in for month after month and achieve successes you couldn't have imagined during the first month of use.

Now...lighting the beacon:

the cross section of an edge is a triangle. We want the tip of the triangle to be sharp and well defined. The closer we come to our desired end result, the more subtle our shaping tools need to be. In reverse correlation, those subtle tools get us nowhere when we start using them too early. Doing a touch up, is in essence nothing more than repeating the same thing you did last time when the edge was at that level. (Ron already pointed that out in a much more concise English than I'll ever master). Hence: If your Coticule got you there in the first place, it 'll get you there again. The only thing you need to learn to assess, is how far to fall back to pick up the edge. It is clear that it depends on a number of criteria:
1. How dull did you allow the razor to get?
2. Did you introduce convexity on a pasted strop?
3. Does your shaves introduce a number of small microchips in the edge of the razor in question, that build up shave after shave?
4. How sharp was the razor initially. Was it only barely qualifying for stepping up to the Coticule with water, or did it meet the required keenness of the previous hone with "keenness to spare"?

All questions that need to be answered on a one by one basis.
That said, for my personal razor collection, my abrasive beard, and the hones I use, I always need to fall back further than a Coticule with just water. Every 10 to 30 shaves, depending on the razor, if it starts to show signs of deterioration, I just rehone it. It usually takes 20-30 laps on a Coticule with light slurry, and whatever I do next to build up the keenness again. Takes me less than 15 minutes.
I strop 20 laps on linen and 60 on leather before each shave. When the edge starts showing signs of deterioration I might do 60 laps on the linen. Often that gets it going for a little while longer.

Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

In all respect:
There is no substitute for getting acquainted with your hones, and that counts double for natural hones. Those of us that have, can fill thread after thread with recipes and generalizations about our honing, and believe me, we will. But those recommendations will always remain no more than a light beacon on a misty ocean. No newcomer is dismissed from doing his own homework.

I'm in complete agreement with the above statement. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a step by step manual here. I prefer to think that the guidelines given by more experienced members is an invaluable stepping stone to developing our own procedures and habits. It's just handy having this kind of resource at my (our) disposal

If anyone else has an opinion on good touch-up hones feel free to put in your $0.02.