Ok, guys ...

[Whiskers]

I am really struggling with this honing bit.

I am using a norton 4/8K with a 12k chinese as a finish hone.

I set the bevel (when needed) on 1k sandpaper.

I've tried the pyramid and just completely excessive laps on the 4k, 8k, and 12k.

Still, my edges come out just so-so. I can shave with them, sure. But the real shaving seems to go on ATG with some removal on the WTG pass. Sure, it shaves .. with some tugging and some razor burn. My edges do not pass any sort of hair test, unless I place the blade on the skin and actually shave the arm/leg hair.


I know this is not an ordinary knife, but I've sharpened many knives before ( and shaved with them) and never had to put on 1/4 of the laps I am using on a medicore honed razor.

I know I am probably not the only one on this site with this problem. Heck, I've watched other members sell their gear over this very issue.

I know it takes a while to learn how to get a good edge ... but this isn't rocket science either. Good, light pressure for me means many more laps with out any sort of result to show for it along with wear to the blade.


How many blades have others destroyed before they got their edges to be 'one pass shave ready'?

I'm on about 7 and counting.


I've gone so far as to check to see if the edge is actually touching the stone... haha.

Everything seems to be working fine except the edge doesnt get sharp.

I feel like I am wasting my time sitting in front of these stones for 45 minutes per blade and not developing an edge I can shave with.


Actually, after 45 minutes, I usually stop honing the blade because I know I am wearing the blade excessively and not because of the edge being keen.

After these sessions, the edge(s) do not show any signs of overhoning whatsoever.

It is as if my mere touch of the razor dulls it.


Then, when I go and finally get an edge I can shave with, it lasts about 5-7 shaves before it becomes completely unusable.

Seriously ... WTF?


I do like shaving with the razor. I actually enjoy it when the blade is sharp. Spending hours just watching my razor become worn away isnt my idea of fun.

< / rant>

[hi_bud_gl]

My edges do not pass any sort of hair test, unless I place the blade on the skin and actually shave the arm/leg hair.
their gear over this very issue.





< / rant>

Thank you for letting us know above sentences. Makes a lot easier to help you. Your blade is NOT shave ready. What are you doing it hurting yourself.
the stones which you have you can definitely get your razor shave ready condition.
At first i have never used sandpaper and can't say anything about it.
I think if you start with 4 k and could set a bevel will take a little longer.
This is the most important start. you have to have bevel set first.
Some people says you will get hair pop up from your arm when you done with 4 k.
then you can move to 8k.
lastly 12k this will need at least 100-150 laps remember this is slow cutting stone. if you have chro2 will help too.
sign which you need to see is this.
Your blade will cut hair approximately 1 cm above the skin and when hair cuts it doesn't pop up it just falls down next to blade or on the blade. this means your blade is ready for shave.
As usually the best test will be shave test.
you shouldn't have any problem when you shave no pressure at all.
Lastly i don't know how long have you been shaving with straight but if you are never had any razor honed by people who knows what they are doing please do so. you can see that edge and compare your work to it.
Hope this helps.

[Whiskers]

I've had a blade honed by Lynn, oso I know what sharpness is acceptable to shave with.

I just cant get close to that sharpness with the stones I have.

I've tried just honing on the 4k (after cutting the bevel)to get the arm hair popping test. Literally, I've worn off about 1/3 of the blade trying to conduct this and it still hasnt happened.

I know that the 4k stone is abrasive, sure ... but to conduct the hair popping test I need to wear away a minor amount of the steel to get the edge.

Basically, I do laps on the 4k without anything to show for it except worn nubs that used to be razors.

What gives?

[0livia]

Maybe very hard steel, so you'd need a very soft stone like a King for the bevel.

[Utopian]

This is going to likely take an exchange of a lot of questions and answers to get this sorted out. Some may seem patronizing, depending on your knowledge level but they will be asked with good intentions.

Since you know about the pyramids, you've done some reading on honing.
Have you watched any videos?

Are you aware of the difference between knife and razor sharpening? That is, keeping the spine down and level on the hone?

What is your basis for determining the need to set the bevel on 1K sandpaper?

Is it wet/dry sandpaper and are you using it wet?

Are your hones lapped?

Are you doing straight strokes or x-strokes?

Does ANY part of the blade get sharp?

Specifically what razors have you tried honing?

Do you have access to any means of magnification?

Are you taping the spine?

"I've gone so far as to check to see if the edge is actually touching the stone... haha." How did you do that?

Do you know about, and have you tried, the marker test?

Are you stropping?

[hi_bud_gl]

Utopian asked a lot questions lets see answers first. 1 more do you use any pressure when you hone? if yes then don't put any pressure. we wait your answers.
Lastly be patient you will get there . we all learn and 1 day were worse then you are.

[mkevenson]

My recommendation, get a DMT 1200 for bevel setting. Your other stones are fine. I use them and get SR blades every time.

[Whiskers]

See answers below in red. Thanks for taking the time. I dont find it partonizing one bit.

Since you know about the pyramids, you've done some reading on honing.
Have you watched any videos?

Yep. Watched a few of Lynn's pyramid videos. I believe I understand the theory behind it. Never once got it to work.

Are you aware of the difference between knife and razor sharpening? That is, keeping the spine down and level on the hone?

Absolutely. There is alot of differences between the two, although once focused on just the bevel, there is alot in common between the two. The rationale of bevel cutting and refining is similar. The techniques (and tools) to achieve them are quite different.

What is your basis for determining the need to set the bevel on 1K sandpaper?

Is it wet/dry sandpaper and are you using it wet?

It's quick. It's available. It's inexpensive. How I understand it ... setting the bevel defines the geometry of the edge. Cutting a new bevel exposes new steel and ensures the bevel is, in fact, correctly defined. This definition is the basis for any edge ( knife, razor). Generally speaking, advancing up into grits will refine the bevel to a keen edge. Sure, I could linger on a 4k for about 10,000 strokes ... so anything like this is possible. It just takes alot less time, effort and energy on lower grit abrasives.

I've been using the 1k wet/dry paper to cut bevels. I use it wet because I find the abrasive on the paper wears consistently. That last bit is only speculation/opinion on my part.

Are your hones lapped?

Yep.

Are you doing straight strokes or x-strokes?

Tried both, actually. I find I get more wear on the blade if I do straight strokes. Besides that, I cant tell the difference regarding what they do to the edge.

Does ANY part of the blade get sharp?

The blade seems to increase in sharpness uniformly when I do straight strokes and the blade isnt warped. The sharpness I get off of the 4k is enough to shave hair, but not nearly enough to do what hi_bud_gl defined in his above post. Honestly, I feel that passing this test is possible with any razor.

Specifically what razors have you tried honing?

Some wade and butchers, a couple Henckels, a wosty, one shumate, two wapi's, a Boker, and a few no-name wedges lay in my wake of destruction. I thank God for Ebay and cheap razors.

Do you have access to any means of magnification?

Funny. I went out today and bought a combo loupe that is good for 10X mag. I feel as if I should be inspecting the actual edge for continuity.

Are you taping the spine?

I have, yes. Specifically on some of the wedges and on the shumate. To me, the sharpness doesn't seem to have the longevity when I tape the spine. Not a big fan, to be honest. When working on the 4k and others, eventually some of the tape will wear off and clog up the hone. Taping the spine doesn't seem to work when I set the bevel on sandpaper, either. The tape self destructs and I am left with steel anyways. For me, it seems like more trouble than it's worth most of the time. Ever try to clean a hone loaded with electrical tape particles? The only way I know how to remove them is to lap. Thats just what I bought the stone for ... wearing it away with sandpaper. ( note the sarcasm)

"I've gone so far as to check to see if the edge is actually touching the stone... haha." How did you do that?

A few ways. First way I used was to simply look at the blade on the hone. Then I began to monitor the water on the honing surface as I was honing. I am looking for a small ridge of excess water to be pushed by the edge during the stroke. In my mind, this means the edge is contacting the hone. The other way I use is to mark up the bevel with a sharpie, run a few strokes and check the bevel.

Do you know about, and have you tried, the marker test?

Yep.

Are you stropping?

It's funny. With this straight razor shaving, I am learning to take everything piece by piece. I am pretty confident my stropping is ok, but I do not strop because I want to eliminate that variable. Therefore, I do not strop. The edge is a bit harsh, but I am confident that the edge I am shaving with is from the hones. To me, it is a good idea to isolate the honing to ensure I am honing correctly .. or in this case ... wtf is up with this.

1 more do you use any pressure when you hone?

Sometimes in the past when I first started honing I became tired (frustrated) of honing without seeing any benefit, so I would apply pressure to the blade on the hone. The first time I did this, I got a very keen edge; one of the best edges I ever got off of a hone, actually. Now, I know that this just wears the blade alot without any real benefit. So, I try to use the weight of the blade when honing. Now I understand to hone to a delicate and very sharp edge, light pressure is needed. But, when I use light and delicate strokes, I sit for an hour without results.

Lastly be patient you will get there . we all learn and 1 day were worse then you are.

Thanks for the encouragement. How many razors did you destroy before learning how to hone?
It seems that I bought a set of rocks to make small piles of steel ... well .. smaller.

[kevint]

Here is your quote Whiskers: "Sometimes in the past when I first started honing I became tired (frustrated) of honing without seeing any benefit, so I would apply pressure to the blade on the hone. The first time I did this, I got a very keen edge; one of the best edges I ever got off of a hone, actually. Now, I know that this just wears the blade alot without any real benefit. So, I try to use the weight of the blade when honing. Now I understand to hone to a delicate and very sharp edge, light pressure is needed. But, when I use light and delicate strokes, I sit for an hour without results. "

The first time you tried you got one of your keenest edges, but then you go on to say it provides no real benefit. Do you notice some contradiction?

You do not want to use excessive pressure- enough to create a wider bevel, but enough to keep the razor on plane.

I use pressure directed to the edge with a slight twisting torque. I have never damaged tape so perhaps that can guide you.

finally at the end use some of those ultra-light touch strokes

then strop. I discovered that it takes much much practice to get an equal to stropped edge without stropping.

With a proper use of some cloth and hide you may discover you really have been wasting your time as you were there all along best of luck

[mparker762]

I've been using the 1k wet/dry paper to cut bevels.

Stop doing this. This is likely a major source of your problems. You should only need to go to wet/dry sandpaper if you're removing major chips from an edge *and* you have mastered use of the traditional hones; it is not a substitute for a stone. Wet-dry sandpaper cuts very quickly but creates a badly ovalled bevel. This is an acceptable trade-off if you're removing nicks, but is a disastrous course of action in just about every other situation, since it removes way too much steel and destroys the bevel.

The key to successful honing is being as gentle with the steel as possible.