Thread: Honing Feedback

I suspect you're right about the "too polished" thing, threeput. I sent one of my early ebay razors along the 8k about 30 times and it didn't perform so well, but just a few light passes after a few light passes on the 4k ala the pyramid and it starts working. It's the technique really isn't it. Once you've got the touch you might be able to get by like your barber friend does and that'll do it. For us who haven't the 60 years experience we need the best tools to overcome our greenness.

Not to dis the old barber, but although his technique might work for the shave, it might not be BEST for the long life of the razor. I gotta wonder about some of the butchered honing jobs I see on ebay.

X

The hanging hair test doesn't work with my hair and neither does the arm hair cutting test. Virtually no razor passes, because my hair is too thin and flexible. So, I learned the thumb and thumbnail tests. Since I felt I finally could use those tests I've done about 30 razors and every razor that passed the thumb test passed the shaving test. The shaving test is the ultimate test, but after 30 successe in a row, I think that the thumb test is pretty reliable for me.

Here is the way I use the two tests:

THUMB
Do this test when you first pick up a razor.

Support the razor gently with the edge pointing up and lightly drag your thumb across the edge in a few places along the blade:

1) If the thumb slides easily and there’s no grab, go to the thumbnail test;

2) If the razor grabs slightly, do 3 swipes on 8K stone and 15-20 on strop, then repeat test;

3) If the razor grabs but you feel no edge do 10 swipes on strop, then repeat test;

4) If the razor grabs really well or moves with the thumb, you will usually feel an edge- shave.




THUMBNAIL
You have failed the thumb test.


Rest the blade on top of the thumbnail with edge pointing down and tilt the thumb downward slowly. If the razor slips sideways go to the 4K stone.

If not, bring thumb back to level and slide the blade on thumbnail from one end to the other:

1) If the blade slides smoothly and doesn’t dig in, go to the 4K stone (dull);

2) If the blade digs in but doesn’t move smoothly, go to the 8K stone (coarse);

3) If the blade moves smoothly and feels like it’s digging in, but you feel a gap or bump, you have a nick at that spot;

4) If the blade moves smoothly and feels like it’s digging in, go to the strop;

5) If the blade digs in but makes a rough, scraping sound you have an overhoned edge.

I described my tests in terms of using a 4/8K stone, but you can move up to finer grits. At each level you stay at a grit as long as you feel thedge improve. When it doesn't make a difference move up to the next finer grit.

This is more in line with the original post. I guess I've known it for awhile, but never really payed that close of attention. Bear with my teminology here, and keep your smirks and elbows to yourselves. I don't know any other term to use besides this. It's common knowledge that when you are approaching optimum on a wet stone, the blade will begin to "suck" to the hone. With 8000 it does somewhat, and with even finer stones it does more so. The edge is becoming so perfectly flat on the stone that it seems to create a sort of suction. My point is this....as it begins to suck, it seems to suck in certain spots and then release in others. If you keep going until the suck is consistent and uniform down the stone, then you're there. (OK one joke wouldn't hurt anybody). This is all assuming your hone is perfectly true and flat. Trueness is of utmost importance at this point I believe. Last night I had a razor sucking so hard on the Chinese 12k+ (OK one more joke and that's it) that I could actually let it go and it would stay there for a second with the handle hanging over in mid-air. Before I reached that point, it started to stick to the stone in spots, but gradually spread to the entire honing surface. At this point, a few very light strokes, then to the strop. I'm enjoying this. Experts chime in.... is it possible to overhone with the Chinese stone? I don't mean 5000 strokes, but could, say, a few hundred at very light pressure do any harm? It took my about 75 round trips to get to this point, so I figure if less than a few hundred, lightly of course, is safe, then it would never become an issue. It is so smooth it can't be removing much steel.

Originally Posted by threeputt

This is more in line with the original post. I guess I've known it for awhile, but never really payed that close of attention. Bear with my teminology here, and keep your smirks and elbows to yourselves. I don't know any other term to use besides this. It's common knowledge that when you are approaching optimum on a wet stone, the blade will begin to "suck" to the hone. With 8000 it does somewhat, and with even finer stones it does more so. The edge is becoming so perfectly flat on the stone that it seems to create a sort of suction. My point is this....as it begins to suck, it seems to suck in certain spots and then release in others. If you keep going until the suck is consistent and uniform down the stone, then you're there. (OK one joke wouldn't hurt anybody). This is all assuming your hone is perfectly true and flat. Trueness is of utmost importance at this point I believe. Last night I had a razor sucking so hard on the Chinese 12k+ (OK one more joke and that's it) that I could actually let it go and it would stay there for a second with the handle hanging over in mid-air. Before I reached that point, it started to stick to the stone in spots, but gradually spread to the entire honing surface. At this point, a few very light strokes, then to the strop. I'm enjoying this. Experts chime in.... is it possible to overhone with the Chinese stone? I don't mean 5000 strokes, but could, say, a few hundred at very light pressure do any harm? It took my about 75 round trips to get to this point, so I figure if less than a few hundred, lightly of course, is safe, then it would never become an issue. It is so smooth it can't be removing much steel.

Your arm will fall off, first .....

Originally Posted by threeputt

This is more in line with the original post. I guess I've known it for awhile, but never really payed that close of attention. Bear with my teminology here, and keep your smirks and elbows to yourselves. I don't know any other term to use besides this. It's common knowledge that when you are approaching optimum on a wet stone, the blade will begin to "suck" to the hone. With 8000 it does somewhat, and with even finer stones it does more so. The edge is becoming so perfectly flat on the stone that it seems to create a sort of suction. My point is this....as it begins to suck, it seems to suck in certain spots and then release in others. If you keep going until the suck is consistent and uniform down the stone, then you're there. (OK one joke wouldn't hurt anybody). This is all assuming your hone is perfectly true and flat. Trueness is of utmost importance at this point I believe. Last night I had a razor sucking so hard on the Chinese 12k+ (OK one more joke and that's it) that I could actually let it go and it would stay there for a second with the handle hanging over in mid-air. Before I reached that point, it started to stick to the stone in spots, but gradually spread to the entire honing surface. At this point, a few very light strokes, then to the strop. I'm enjoying this. Experts chime in.... is it possible to overhone with the Chinese stone? I don't mean 5000 strokes, but could, say, a few hundred at very light pressure do any harm? It took my about 75 round trips to get to this point, so I figure if less than a few hundred, lightly of course, is safe, then it would never become an issue. It is so smooth it can't be removing much steel.

I've never seen an explanation of what that suction is. I suspect it has to do with the scratch lines. I'm guessing that when they're really fine the water seals all the space between the razor and hone. If that is true, it certainly would be comfortable because any friction of the scratch lines against the skin would be eliminated. I don't know if that also means that the edge is maximally sharp. First, we'd have to know what causes an improvemeny in sharpness as you hone the finer grits.

Does anybody know or have any ideas?

I've wondered about this too, I thought that the suction was due to the edge being smooth enough to make a seal to the stone, and then their being resulting suction created between it, the water, and the hollow of the blade.
It would be interesting to learn what it really is, though. I think all of us have noticed it. And by the way, Joe your thumb method sounds a little different than I've done. I'm going to try your version out myself this weekend, thanks for the good instructions. Here is essentially my method: In the past I would hone until I "felt" the stone, (the sucking everyone is discussing) then I would drag the edge on a wet thumbnail; if it dug in smooth I would strop it, and if afterwards I could feel the edge "catch" on my wet thumb, I would see if it would cut a hair waved across the edge (the hanging hair test, in a "less dangerous" method). Sometimes I also like to look at the edge as i go, using a microscope, although I must admit some of the smoothest LOOKING edges aren't necessarily the smoothest SHAVING ones...
Interesting stuff.
John P.

Originally Posted by JohnP

I've wondered about this too, I thought that the suction was due to the edge being smooth enough to make a seal to the stone, and then their being resulting suction created between it, the water, and the hollow of the blade.
It would be interesting to learn what it really is, though. I think all of us have noticed it. And by the way, Joe your thumb method sounds a little different than I've done. I'm going to try your version out myself this weekend, thanks for the good instructions. Here is essentially my method: In the past I would hone until I "felt" the stone, (the sucking everyone is discussing) then I would drag the edge on a wet thumbnail; if it dug in smooth I would strop it, and if afterwards I could feel the edge "catch" on my wet thumb, I would see if it would cut a hair waved across the edge (the hanging hair test, in a "less dangerous" method). Sometimes I also like to look at the edge as i go, using a microscope, although I must admit some of the smoothest LOOKING edges aren't necessarily the smoothest SHAVING ones...
Interesting stuff.
John P.

I don't think our tests are really that different. I just try to feel an edge. It happens after the edge starts grabbing. I don't know if the suction is a good test for coming off a stone. For example, if you had it on an 8K stone you would have it as soon as you hit a 12K.

If an edge is even under 100x and shows a shiny fin, it should shave, but the smoothness may depend more on the condition of the sides of the edge. The scratch pattern is like a tire tread and it contacts the skin when you shave. The friction it produces can cause discomfort. When you go to pasted strops the scratches get narrower and the leather strop smoothes them down. All of this smoothes the shave. You can see this smoothing in a microscope.

One of the things I do to improve the consistency of the hanging hair test is to clean the razor before performing the hanging hair test. The soap and water remove any particles in the fin and then I "strop" the razor over a terry cloth towel. The "nap" seems to remove any particles left over from the hone and straighten out the fin a bit.

Just my two cents,

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I've never seen an explanation of what that suction is. I suspect it has to do with the scratch lines. I'm guessing that when they're really fine the water seals all the space between the razor and hone. If that true, it certainly would be comfortable because any friction of the scratch lines against the skin would be eliminated. I don't know if that also means that the edge is maximally sharp. First, we'd have to know whats causing the improvemeny in sharpness.

Does anybody know or have any ideas?

When I get near to a perfect edge, I notice a difference in the "pull" of the razor on the stone. It seems to cling a bit. The sound of the steel against the stone also changes. Ditto on the strop ... the sound changes .... It's hard to describe in words .....

I'm starting to notice a little drag on the 8k. I've been wondering about it as it seems to be when the razor is almost ready to pop hairs. I haven't tried to see if it sticks to the stone yet. It MUST be the surface tnsion of the water between the blade and stone that does that.

X