Thread: A simple rant

I have honed a couple thousand razors using the Naniwa Super1K, 5K and 8K followed by the 12K.I find that they cut plenty fast, but the key is always to make sure the 1K work is done. I usually lap about every 12 razors or so. That said, I have also honed thousands of razors on the Norton 4K/8K and all the Shapton Glass and a bunch of other stones including Kings, Kitiyama, DMT and a bunch of different finishers. I am also testing the full line of Naniwa Chosera at the moment and they are very promising, but not a cheaper hone for sure.

When I was first getting started with the Norton, I found sometimes that the harder I tried, the worser it got. Even now, if I have trouble on on stone, I will just back off until the next day and try another stone.

It eventually clicks with most folks. Just stay relaxed and try to make it fun vs. becoming an obsession. Not meaning anything negative with obsession.

The circle regiment really does work with a variety of stones as shown on the NC gathering video. It's just practice and building your confidence with hones that you become comfortable with no matter what they are.

Have fun,

Lynn

Originally Posted by Lynn

I usually lap about every 12 razors or so.

What do you lap the 1K with?

And despite my "rant" it hasn't reached a full obsession stage yet!

Originally Posted by TexasBob

What do you lap the 1K with?

And despite my "rant" it hasn't reached a full obsession stage yet!

Either a DMT 325 coarse or my GDLP.

Lynn

Originally Posted by Lynn

Either a DMT 325 coarse or my GDLP.

Lynn

I used a DMT325 but read somewhere that DMT didn't recommend lapping things under 2K (or some such) but barged ahead anyway since I had nothing else.

Originally Posted by TexasBob

I used a DMT325 but read somewhere that DMT didn't recommend lapping things under 2K (or some such) but barged ahead anyway since I had nothing else.

you can lap anything with DMt if you want to..I use 120 for lapping all my stones then for the polishers I go over that with 1.2k to smoothen things out.
You can use dry/wet sand paper too.

Originally Posted by Joed

After you get your homes flat try what I suggested to Floorpizza in this thread: http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...me-help-2.html

Good luck!

I hope you guys don't mind me re-posting Joed's post here, but I feel it really is a great post...

paste:

Originally Posted by Joed

Well... I'm a bit run down from the day so this may be a bit jumpy.

1) If you go to using pastes in lower grits than those used for polishing you will need to think of a way to get the metal removed off the blade off the strops. Rubbing metal on metal is not good when trying to achieve the edge required for a good shave.

2) Until you get better use of your hands back try to limit your honing to hollow grinds with a narrow bevel to reduce the amount of metal that needs to be removed.

3) What kind of hones do you have? When I hone on a Norton 8k I can see the metal removed gets heavy and loads the hone fast when the blade has softer steel and I find that most of the Sheffield blades are softer steel. Hone blades with softer steel for a while. Also avoid smiling blades.

4) I was a Tool and Die Maker for many years and when I work metal I instinctively look for the end results as quickly as I can achieve them. I enjoy honing but that is not where the rubber meets the road, getting the hair off you face smoothly is so let's change your approach a little. When setting your bevel get as much metal off as quickly as you can with the least amount of effort. When you finish setting the bevel it should be cutting hairs on your arm at skin level all across the blade length. The fastest way I have found to achieve this is moving the blade in circles or back and forth along the hone. Put your index finger on the spine if needed to apply a bit of pressure. This works best with one hand after yo get used to it. I do this by time and not lap counts. Something like 30 seconds per side or a minute per side. Use the marker test first to be sure the blade is not warped. If it is, this method will not work well or will result in uneven hone wear and uneven bevel. After your time on each side do a few seconds more per side just to break and burrs. Now do a few X strokes per normal honing and then the TNT. Once you get the edge to 'bite' over the entire edge do 15 to 30 seconds in circles per side, something like 10 X strokes and test for cut on arm hairs. Repeat the last step as needed until it cuts arm hairs. Now you have a good edge on the coarsest hone you are using and the majority of the metal has been removed the fastest. The rest of your hones will just be polishing the bevel and refining the edge. On the next hone up in your progression start by doing circles or back and forth strokes until you bevel's scratch pattern matches the hone you are using. This usually take a minute or two per side for me. Then do the x strokes for ~ 10 strokes and test the cut on arm hairs again. Repeat the circles and X strokes until the entire length of the blade cuts hairs again. Once you finish on your 8k hone you can move to your finisher. I believe I recall you have Shapton hones. I haven't tried the circles on anything higher than 8k. I leave that up to you. This would be where you pastes can be used if you get better results. Yo will have to experiment.

I realize this process is a bit different than a lot of people use for honing. The process works well for blades that are not warped and will hone the complete bevel when the blade and spine are on the hone. It does get more complicated when the blades have unique characteristics and most blades have at least one, so you will need to address those by altering how the blade rests on your hone while working the edge.

This is a starting point and not the final solution for each and every blade out there. It is only a suggestion your your experimentation but I can tell you for sure that it works very well for me. I haven't honed thousands of blades but I have worked metal for over 20 years to super fine finishes and tolerances as close as +_.0002 inches in normal environments and +-.00005 in a controlled environment. I hope this helps you.

Since Joed put me down this road, I have found that circles are a great way to get the initial work done on whatever stone you're using up to 8k. I haven't had much luck with circles on 16k or 30k, but on grits lower, it is just a great way to quickly wipe out the previous grit's sanding scratches. Then as Joed (and Lynn, too, in his killer video series) says, do a few normal X pattern laps after the circles.

Circles and half X strokes can also greatly increase the speed at which a coticule cuts at, too.

I think the problem is you are trying to hone upwards when you should be honing downwards.

When I teach people to hone I teach them them hone downwards.

Here is what you are likely doing. You are taking a razor with a torn up bevel and you are moving it on way too low a grit and ending up with a torn up bevel, thus you make no progress. Follow so far?

What you should be doing instead is grabbing the highest grit you have, starting "at the top" and hone with that. Hone like 100 strokes and create a good, unsharp bevel. Exam it with your scope. Now, got that? That is your new baseline. See what it looks like?

Then move DOWN in grit and hone that with just a few laps. Did you tear the bevel to pieces again, or is it intact? If its torn to pieces your stroke sucks, or you're using too much pressure. Go back to step 1. If the bevel remains intact you have "learned" on that lower grit, then move down further and try again. The razor will slowly get sharper and sharper, but at some point the edge will get torn up because you don't have the skill for the grit. So, the theory is "lower is harder". Got it?

That should work much better, although it'll take longer. But you'll also learn the grit that your skill can handle. Anytime the bevel gets torn you've gone too low and you have to start over again. At some point you can stop trying to go low and start working back up, at which point you'll be home free.

It's counter-intuitive. Not the best way to hone, but it works great for learning to hone.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I think the problem is you are trying to hone upwards when you should be honing downwards.

When I teach people to hone I teach them them hone downwards.

Here is what you are likely doing. You are taking a razor with a torn up bevel and you are moving it on way too low a grit and ending up with a torn up bevel, thus you make no progress. Follow so far?

What you should be doing instead is grabbing the highest grit you have, starting "at the top" and hone with that. Hone like 100 strokes and create a good, unsharp bevel. Exam it with your scope. Now, got that? That is your new baseline. See what it looks like?

Then move DOWN in grit and hone that with just a few laps. Did you tear the bevel to pieces again, or is it intact? If its torn to pieces your stroke sucks, or you're using too much pressure. Go back to step 1. If the bevel remains intact you have "learned" on that lower grit, then move down further and try again. The razor will slowly get sharper and sharper, but at some point the edge will get torn up because you don't have the skill for the grit. So, the theory is "lower is harder". Got it?

That should work much better, although it'll take longer. But you'll also learn the grit that your skill can handle. Anytime the bevel gets torn you've gone too low and you have to start over again. At some point you can stop trying to go low and start working back up, at which point you'll be home free.

It's counter-intuitive. Not the best way to hone, but it works great for learning to hone.

AFD,

So when you're shaving sharp you're down at something like a 220 grit, or am I missing something?

Maybe I'm out to lunch on this, but could he be having the same initial trouble on the Naniwa hones that I was having?

see: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...e-coating.html

There seems to be a coating on those Naniwas, and if you lapp off the pencil lines, you may still be a long lapping way from the proper surface of the hone.

I was making my razor duller the more I tried oh-so carefully to hone it.

Once I lapped the coating away, down to the speckled surface of the stone, then the razor sharpened up quickly and easily.

FWIW...

Originally Posted by Bruce

AFD,

So when you're shaving sharp you're down at something like a 220 grit, or am I missing something?

Yes

"At some point you can stop trying to go low and start working back up"