Thread: People who tape their spine, then sell that razor irritate me.

And yet you trust the japanese folks who mine stones for chisels, swords and knives to pick out razor stones for you?


Maybe setting a bevel is harder when you tape your razor, in fact I'm fairly sure that it is. But straight razors were clearly designed with the idea in mind that the edge sets itself. That's the whole reason you want spine wear. It maintains that design.

Beveling a knife requires that you perform all your passes with even pressure while holding a fairly significant bit of weight at a constant angle and elevation. Microbeveling is required for multiple kitchen knives and in many kitchens a honer must be able to bevel a knife to a specific angle required for whatever task is ahead of the knife that day. This can be anywhere from 12 to 30. Some Japanese chefs take their knives even below twelve.

The reason a knife-guy shouldn't pick up a razor with no instruction and attempt to bevel it is simple that he'll assume it actually requires his skills. When in fact razors were designed so that honing them requires only a moderately steady hand and a little basic knowledge. Now beveling a warped or damaged blade is another story. But this blade was not warped, and I was not interested in maintaining the damage and simply achieving an edge despite it. I wanted it fixed.


I'm not arguing science. I'm arguing Mechanical design of what is one of the most fundamental devices on earth.

Now yer just reaching trying to save face,,,,

What you don't understand is that even if your "science" were right, which it isn't, hands on experience with thousands of razors honed with tape would prove it invalid..

Once again if you don't want to tape your razor then don't, but please don't try to tell us that it irritates you when somebody else does, or that we're wrong for doing it.. Because to many people use tape and we already know it does work...

When in fact razors were designed so that honing them requires only a moderately steady hand and a little basic knowledge.

And there's the rub! Pure Hubris!

You honestly assume sharpening a kitchen knife's edge is comparable to getting a smooth shaving razor's edge? LOL I'm laughing too hard to even type right now....uhhh ya... last I checked my tomatoes and onions won't get razorburn from a shitty knife's edge.. err... or maybe some of those heirloom one's might.

The razor is designed to hone properly with it's design, but to claim it takes little skill to do so is pretty much hubris, but I digress. I'll hand you a frameback and a true wedge and you tell me they we're both designed to hone themselves....lol I'll see you in a hour or so and get you to shave with it....LOL

Apparently your also an expert on electrical tape compression ratios. I like that, it reminds me of an old addage.

"when you fight with a pig you both get dirty, but the pig likes it."

cheers
D

Ian, listen to what they say, they know their stuff. I agree that knife honing is a more complex craft than razor honing, but the experience is not interchangeable.

I have two obvious little peeves with taping spines and I hope the meisters here will not mind me sharing it:

1. the tape wears off way faster than steel, and may lead to rounded bevels if you are not careful about replacing worn tape frequently enough and I hate replacing it because I am a lazy animal (this could be mitigated by choosing a better tape than my $1 electrician's tape from the Dollar Tree stores). OTOH, fresh tape usually results in the very edge touching the hone (if your bevel is set right); which is good especially when you do it before moving to a higher grit hone.

2. once you begin taping some of them and/or use different numbers of layers, you have to have a discipline for a good honing log or have a damn good memory.

To figure out whether and how much taping a razor may need, I use the old good trick with a permanent marker and a few laps on a fine polisher. Sometimes asking the sellers does not work, especially if they had honed the razor months and months ago.

Originally Posted by sparq

Ian, listen to what they say, they know their stuff. I agree that knife honing is a more complex craft than razor honing, but the experience is not interchangeable.

The real funny thing is I totally agree here, I can't sharpen a knife for love or money... But I don't try and claim that because I can sharpen a razor, too stupid sharp, that it somehow makes me qualified to tell anyone how...

Here is a quote from one of Lynn Abrams archived posts,

"I think the biggest problem out there not unlike shaving is that people think because they have honed knives or tools forever and shaved since they were 12 that it's gonna be very easy and expect it to be. "The problem *CAN'T* be me". But a razors edge is a very delicate instrument and with a little patience and experimentation, you *CAN* learn to hone with the best of them, even if you are just honing for your own satisfaction. The search for that absolute perfect or just a little better shave resulting from that just a little better edge is never ending."

We who have honed with 1 layer ... or whatever ... of tape know what works. I have chosen to go to no tape since becoming confident in my skill level. When I was new I feared I might do more harm than good without the tape. Here is another quote from Lynn Abrams,

"Where I see the problems daily when honing or fixing people razors is that they use hundreds of strokes and uneven pressure and end up with bevels on top of bevels and uneven spines and all kinds of interesting stuff. Every time I see sandpaper scratches on an edge or blade, I know I need to go from scratch on that razor to repair the deep scratch marks, set a new bevel and re-hone the razor."

Until a new guy gets the chops down tape may be a good idea. Once learned it is certainly optional. IME one way is as good as the other.YMMV.

Originally Posted by IanS

Maybe setting a bevel is harder when you tape your razor, in fact I'm fairly sure that it is. But straight razors were clearly designed with the idea in mind that the edge sets itself. That's the whole reason you want spine wear. It maintains that design.

Sorry mate, but I'm one of those that thinks there is nothing "attractive" about a worn spine. And I can't honestly say I've ever wanted spine wear either. Some may agree with you, but I don't.

Many members more experienced than I will tell you it's no fun setting bevels and honing razors with appreciable spine wear, as it will not always be even on both sides. In fact taping the spine can therefore be beneficial in these cases, and not the detriment that you claim above.

Originally Posted by IanS

And yet you trust the japanese folks who mine stones for chisels, swords and knives to pick out razor stones for you?


Maybe setting a bevel is harder when you tape your razor, in fact I'm fairly sure that it is. But straight razors were clearly designed with the idea in mind that the edge sets itself. That's the whole reason you want spine wear. It maintains that design.

Beveling a knife requires that you perform all your passes with even pressure while holding a fairly significant bit of weight at a constant angle and elevation. Microbeveling is required for multiple kitchen knives and in many kitchens a honer must be able to bevel a knife to a specific angle required for whatever task is ahead of the knife that day. This can be anywhere from 12 to 30. Some Japanese chefs take their knives even below twelve.

The reason a knife-guy shouldn't pick up a razor with no instruction and attempt to bevel it is simple that he'll assume it actually requires his skills. When in fact razors were designed so that honing them requires only a moderately steady hand and a little basic knowledge. Now beveling a warped or damaged blade is another story. But this blade was not warped, and I was not interested in maintaining the damage and simply achieving an edge despite it. I wanted it fixed.


I'm not arguing science. I'm arguing Mechanical design of what is one of the most fundamental devices on earth.

Really impressed with your use of jargon there mate. Perhaps the Japanese are highly regarded for their hones because maybe Iwasaki Kosuke after having seen his father as well as many blacksmiths lose business to the Germans ( due to their fairly inexpensive priced razors but comparable quality ) he took it upon himself to invest his time perfecting the art of steel making. Kosuke researched steel and best hones used for maintaining steel's edge. He apprenticed himself with blacksmiths to immerse himself with the techniques they employed....

If you think this is crock of shit, I encourage you to ask JimR or OLD_SCHOOL. Jim's in touch with Iwasaki's apprentice Mizuouchi Ryuichi while OLD_SCHOOL is Takahashi Norikazu.

Look up Tamahagane, the Japanese culture follow Iwasaki's guideline set forth when it comes to forging Tamahagane swords. Another thing, Japanese razors are honed similar fashion one would a chisel. But I'm not a woodworker so I wouldn't know...

Stephan, I've said many times I'm referring to the change that occurs over a long period of use. What you say is true, the change due specifically to the presence of the tape at an individual honing disregarding uneven wear is very small. That's why I'm not really concerned with it.

And while there will be variance in wear due to variations in honers, the end result should be extremely close to the original angle.

Your presumption that equal surface area is necessary is mistaken. Disregarding chaff interference, equal pressure, angle and identical surfaces guarantees equal wear for any given point. Calculus applies that across the entire blade (that is in contact) and Geometry guarantees that the angle is therefore maintained. Now the question of maintaining equal pressure raises issues, but even given the disparity in gravitational pressure, due to the hardness of steel and shape of most blades this effect should be minimized (bringing us back to your point about it not being exactly perfect either way).


Richmond, I don't have the required experience to identify that personal impressions can not be generalized universally? Frankly, if you believe than a steeper angled blade is just as sharp as a shallower angled one, all other factors held constant. You're quite simply wrong, no matter how much experience you can put behind your stance. If your opinion is that the reduction in sharpness is insignificant enough that it doesn't affect the quality of the shave, then I'd hope you were mature enough to recognize that opinions, moreover opinions of what others perceptions must be are not drawn from experience at all. Differently angled edges, even at very similar angles, cut very distinctly. The 15 to 25 degree's mentioned is an extreme example. It really boggles my mind that anyone can believe that a ten degree difference in angle does not change a razors cutting ability. In fact it would certainly change it drastically. But that is a very extreme example, far beyond what a razor would ever likely face. Go and push in your lawnmowers blades ten degrees on either side and tell me how well it cuts your grass.

Sired I wasn't commenting on the quality of japanese hones. I've actually been buying a couple myself lately. In doing so I've read through many threads and seen many cases where the seller (usually a miner, carpenter, or merchant that caters to carpenters) was asked to handpick a razor hone.


Gugi. I assure you wustof steel can hold a razor edge perfectly fine.
The effect you're talking about, I assume is flexing? If that's a correct guess, then I'll only say that if you're flexing your razor more than .014 inches while honing, then please never attempt to hone again, ever. If you're flexing it 14 inches while honing, then please get me a membership to your gym.

What angle are feathers? I always assumed they were similar angles to DE and SE blades. (I don't mean to be smart, but DE/SE are rated at included angle, feathers may be as well, so make sure).

I think I will revisit this post when you are 45 IanS. I will be very curious as to your view point in 20 years...if you stick with straights that is.
As the Bob Dylan song goes: "Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

See you in 20!